Joyce misses one

[celebur]

Originally Posted by UMP25

By rule, then, that is not a catch of the ball and therefore should not be ruled an out. When tagging a base or runner, a fielder must have secure possession of the ball immediately before, during, and immediately after the tag is applied. This did not seem to occur in the play in question.

The very first time I saw the replay, admittedly after hearing about how Joyce kicked the call, I instantly belted out to myself, "Hey! The ball was moving in his mitt! He never had secure possession of it. My God! Joyce got the call correct but for the wrong reason."

Regardless, I'm not going to jump on the bandwagon that defends Joyce's call or blasts it. I'm simply stating what I saw in the first replay I viewed and why.

That's not how I saw it. F1 'snow-coned' the ball, but he had complete control. After he came off the bag, he flipped it deeper into the pocket. That looked deliberate to me (he thought he had an out, and he was making sure to keep this ball as a momento since it would have been the final out in his perfect game), and happened after the criteria for ruling out/safe.

[cviverito]

Originally Posted by cviverito

I watched the vid but did not see a 'juggle' angle. Anybody got that one?

Ok - I found it. I don't see any lack of control. I see a snow-cone catch. But I have it in slo-mo. Joyce thought he beat it. As he said he kicked it.

[cviverito]

One thing that comes to mind for me - "situation awareness". Almost always a good thing for an umpire to have. Especially good for being prepared to get into position.

I think there are some details in a game that we might not want to be aware of - they are score and who the game is important to and why. I think knowing that can draw on our emotions...which I think can cloud our judgment. After all...we're only human. Anyone have a good example of why we need to know the score or importance of game?

Case-in-point against knowing...called a banger at 1st base in a conf JUCCO game earlier this year...got it right. Total focus on the sound, etc. Glad I got it right too because it sealed a no-hitter. Walking off the field I was like (best Eddie Murphy "where's all my money?" impression) 'hey...why the hell are all the players dog-piling on the mound?'...then I looked at the score-board and it all made sense.

Not that knowing would have made my call anything else...but it would have increased the pressure to get it right. Pressure...love the rush...but it can be an obstacle to an umpire.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by cviverito

Anyone have a good example of why we need to know the score or importance of game?

Only in the last inning (or near the time limit), so I know when to call the game over. Importance of the game? Every game is important... if one is "more" important to someone, I agree with you - I don't want to know it.

[David B]

Originally Posted by LMan

Will Selig or Tigers official scorer retroactively rule the play an error?

But that does no good, it still ruins a perfect game, simply gives him a no-hitter.

i thought it interesting this morning Don Denkinger (sp?) was interviewed on Mike and Mike and he was in favor of "instant replay" in certain situations.

We all know that it won't work in many situations because of the nature of baseball, but on a play such as this one with no other runners on base it could be used. At least that was his take.

One other comment interesting this morning watching ESPN, the runner who was ruled safe said, "given the situation, I was expecting to be called out."

Wow that is revealing to me that the players know there is such thing as the "expected call" in certain situations.
I give him credit for being honest.

Thanks
David

[DLH17]

Speaking of Denkinger, he must be loving the fact he's off the hotseat now after 25 years.

[Dealone]

The only way I can visualize a top-level umpire missing a call like this was that the play developed in a way that compromised his perspective given his position on the line. I'm not saying Joyce was out of position. I'm saying the play ended up a footrace where Joyce had a difficult headon view (and not a great view for a F1 bobble either because the bobble is also going to be moving toward Joyce) and Joyce said that he saw the runner beat the throw. Whichever way F3 played ball is irrelevant. I would like to see a replay from a downline camera angle (Joyce's perspective) to see what might have caused Joyce to miss this important call so badly. I wish the media coverage would point out that this is difficult play because the ump has to be in two places at once (fieldside of F1 for the silent no-pop catch, and at same time, foul territory to judge the footrace from a decent lateral perspective). Maybe that argues for a call followed by standard consultation.

[DLH17]

I didn't see a bobble.

[BigGref]

Originally Posted by Dealone

The only way I can visualize a top-level umpire missing a call like this was that the play developed in a way that compromised his perspective given his position on the line. I'm not saying Joyce was out of position. I'm saying the play ended up a footrace where Joyce had a difficult headon view (and not a great view for a F1 bobble either because the bobble is also going to be moving toward Joyce) and Joyce said that he saw the runner beat the throw. Whichever way F3 played ball is irrelevant. I would like to see a replay from a downline camera angle (Joyce's perspective) to see what might have caused Joyce to miss this important call so badly. I wish the media coverage would point out that this is difficult play because the ump has to be in two places at once (fieldside of F1 for the silent no-pop catch, and at same time, foul territory to judge the footrace from a decent lateral perspective). Maybe that argues for a call followed by standard consultation.

Well Put Dealone, look forward to some more posts...
This was indeed a not so normal play, due to the factors seen above, is an excuse... well, yes a little bit, but as it has been stated ad nauseum the game is officiated by humans, and some mistakes will happen, hopefully never at this level, at this moment. I also love how the slow motion, freeze frame shot that is shown on news channels today loudly proclaiming it was such an "easy call".
But as I saw tonight on the nightly news, Brian Williams put it well that the situation does send some great messages to the young players, that sometimes things may not go your way, even though you "deserved" it, that what you do afterwards shows the true you. there have been a lot of BIG people in this situation.
As far as some that just want to kick someone who is already down, by saying things like "hope your happy, etc," they're just dicks.

[PeteBooth]

It's amazing that Denkinger gets blamed for that call YET Jak Clark's miss pop-up off the bat of Steve Balboni that prolonged the inning goes un-noticed.

Pete Booth

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

It's amazing that Denkinger gets blamed for that call YET Jak Clark's miss pop-up off the bat of Steve Balboni that prolonged the inning goes un-noticed.

Pete Booth

All too typical.

[jimpiano]

MTD, Sr.[/QUOTE]

God, what total bullcrap.
The first baseman made the play and the throw beat the runner by a step.
There was no bobble, certainly none that the umpire saw or he would have said so.
Joyce blew the call and admitted it.
He put it all on his shoulders and asked for no mercy.
You ought to appreciate that and quit making feeble excuses Joyce himself would reject.
He is a man who made a mistake, then owned up to it.
He will be behind the plate today and life will go on.