Was I Trigger Happy?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

USSSA has it's own rule book. Why were they using NFHS - or did you just think they were?

In USSSA (OBR) there are no dead ball appeals. I can see why a USSSA coach would be really POed.

Rich:

You make a good point about the difference between OBR and NFHS rules. I am sure that many of the posters in the baseball and softball forums know that I am a regular poster in the basketball forum both here and in the NFHS Officials Basketball Forum and that I have officiated both NFHS and NCAA Men's and Women's basketball for over 30 years and was a USA Basketball Referee (FIBA Rules) for 15 years and a basketball rules interpreter and instructional chairman for far more years than I care to remember, and this is a bone of contention with me when it comes to summer baseball.

Lets face it, the vast majority of baseball umpires who umpire at the amatuer level umpire games that use NFHS Rules or should be using NFHS Rules. And while the internet has made it very easy for all of us to get copies of the OBR as well as casebook plays in OBR, 99.9% of our games involve players who are 18U and really should be playing NFHS during the summer because that is what they will be playing when they are in jr. high school and high schoool. I have downloaded copies of the OBR and NCAA baseball rules every year as a reference and really learn about the OBR/NCAA/NFHS differences from reading threads here on Officiatin.com, but lets face it, my baseball umpiring experience and expertise is in NFHS Rules and that is the rule set that youth baseball leagues really should be using.

When it comes to basketball the AAU, YBOA, AYBTour, NYBA, and etc. get one thing right, they use NFHS rules, the exception being AAU girls which uses NCAA Women's (which really is not a problem because the NFHS and NCAA Men's/Wemen's rules are derived from a common rule set: the National Basketabll Committee of the United States and Canada). It would be ludricous for youth basketball to be using NBA/WNBA rules (even though they are not all that different from NFHS and NCAA than some people would think) for their summer leagues and tournaments.

Just my two cents.

MTD, Sr.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Lets face it, the vast majority of baseball umpires who umpire at the amatuer level umpire games that use NFHS Rules or should be using NFHS Rules. And while the internet has made it very easy for all of us to get copies of the OBR as well as casebook plays in OBR, 99.9% of our games involve players who are 18U and really should be playing NFHS during the summer because that is what they will be playing when they are in jr. high school and high schoool.

Just my two cents.

MTD, Sr.

Mark I respect your background and your opinion, but you did not answer the question.

Were these USSSA teams really playing under FED rules, or did you just think they should be?

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

Mark I respect your background and your opinion, but you did not answer the question.

Were these USSSA teams really playing under FED rules, or did you just think they should be?

He answered it in post #42.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

Mark I respect your background and your opinion, but you did not answer the question.

Were these USSSA teams really playing under FED rules, or did you just think they should be?

Yes he did. Read higher.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

Mark I respect your background and your opinion, but you did not answer the question.

Were these USSSA teams really playing under FED rules, or did you just think they should be?

Read Post #42 for my answer.

MTD, Sr.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Thanks guys for defending my answering the question.

MTD, Sr.

[SouthGARef]

I've had fun the past couple of weekends myself. USSSA 16U ball. Same teams play every week, and about 6-8 of our umpires work the games every week. We get to know each other rather well. OBR rules with USSSA mods.

Last weekend I'm the field umpire in a bracket game. Runner at 2nd, one out. Dribbler to the shortstop, and the runner takes off for third. The runner is in the basepath, and the ball, fielder, and runner all converge in the same general area at one time. However, the runner never made any contact with the fielder and never made any other actions that could be classified as interference. Team A's (the fielding team) HC wasn't there the day before, so one of the parents has been filling in, but the HC is there this day just not in the dugout. The parent coaching the team calls time, and respectfully asks why I did not call interference -- saying that the baserunner has to avoid contact with the fielder. I concur, but disagree that any contact was made and add that there were no actions by the runner that could be construed as interference. He seems somewhat upset, but understands and walks back to the dugout. No biggie. Happens all the time.

Next thing I know the Team A HC is yelling "You don't have to have contact to call interference." I of course don't grant him with any type of response because, since he's not a coach in this game -- he's nothing more than a spectator. Plus, he missed 95% of the conversation I had with the acting-coach that day.

This past weekend, Team A's HC is acting as coach. I have the team in a pool play game. I'm in the field again, with a runner on 3rd and one out. Team A is batting. Soft liner right to the pitcher, who makes the catch. Everyone just kind of pauses, then F1 throws the ball to F5 in an attempt to catch R3 off the bag. R3 is clearly out, and I call him as such. It wasn't really that close. Since this is the third out of the inning, I leisurely jog to my mid-inning position towards RF. Team A's dugout is on the 1BL. After I get to my position, I see Team A's HC at the edge of the grass. He says "That wasn't even close." I respond "You're right Coach, it wasn't." He just kind of stands puzzled, then says "Your timing is awful." I just ignore him. He's about 20-25 feet from me, so his dugout can of course hear him. "You need to stop anticipating calls." I say "OK Coach, that's enough." He then says "Your timing is awful." At this point I restrict the coach to the dugout (which I know isn't in OBR rules but the TD has allowed us to do because often times these teams only have one coach). After a couple of minutes, I hear him say something to the effect of "I'm not going anywhere." Should have tossed him. Don't know why I didn't. He just stands there outside of his dugout. I leisurely walk up to my partner, tell him Team A's coach is restricted, and he puts him in the dugout. Wish my partner would have done that on his own, but alas.

The next day I'm scheduled to work his bracket game as the PU. No problems through six innings. In the bottom of the seventh and final inning, he's down 7-6. First batter comes up and works a full count. Pitch comes right across the outer third (not corner) and I ring him up. Kid takes three steps towards the dugout, then turns looks at me and says "WHAT?! THAT WAS THREE FEET OUTSIDE!" Loud enough so that everyone could hear him. I dump him. Then Team A's coach wants to argue about the ejection. Asks what he's ejected for, I said yelling at an umpire about balls and strikes. He then says "Well, what's he ejected for?" I tell him that I've already explained it, and he knows players are not allowed to yell at umpires. He then tries to accuse me of baiting him and his team into ejections. Of course, nothing is further than the truth. My partner (different one) ushers him away. The last two outs are made, and his team loses 7-6.

He's a pretty prominent HC in the area (his team's not all that great, but he's been around here a while), and I'm new here. Only been calling in this area for about a month. All of our umpires in the association agree that we generally don't have any major problems with anybody but this one team and their fans. Their fans are generally terrible and want to chase you off the field. We've come to the determination that it's all because the HC gives the example that any problems that the team suffers (they went 2-20 last year) can be blamed on umpires. Even the kids are starting to bicker now. It's just a shame.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by SouthGARef

Last weekend I'm the field umpire in a bracket game. Runner at 2nd, one out. Dribbler to the shortstop, and the runner takes off for third. The runner is in the basepath, and the ball, fielder, and runner all converge in the same general area at one time. However, the runner never made any contact with the fielder and never made any other actions that could be classified as interference. Team A's (the fielding team) HC wasn't there the day before, so one of the parents has been filling in, but the HC is there this day just not in the dugout. The parent coaching the team calls time, and respectfully asks why I did not call interference -- saying that the baserunner has to avoid contact with the fielder. I concur, but disagree that any contact was made and add that there were no actions by the runner that could be construed as interference. He seems somewhat upset, but understands and walks back to the dugout. No biggie. Happens all the time.

Apart from putting up with all the BS, you might have missed this one.

1. You don't say so, but presumably the defense did not get an out on this play. I'm assuming that because otherwise they wouldn't have complained.

2. I'm concerned with these parts of your post. I think that you're giving the offense too much benefit of the doubt.

The defense has absolute priority on a batted ball. If the runner's presence caused the fielder to hesitate or otherwise disrupted the play, that's sufficient to call INT here.

As you note, contact is not required for INT here. But neither is intent: on a batted ball, the runner might simply be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Indeed, his intent might have been obviously to AVOID interfering, and he could still be guilty of INT on this play.

So it's hard to know based on what you posted, but I suspect that the defense had a legitimate gripe here.

[SouthGARef]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Apart from putting up with all the BS, you might have missed this one.

1. You don't say so, but presumably the defense did not get an out on this play. I'm assuming that because otherwise they wouldn't have complained.

2. I'm concerned with these parts of your post. I think that you're giving the offense too much benefit of the doubt.

The defense has absolute priority on a batted ball. If the runner's presence caused the fielder to hesitate or otherwise disrupted the play, that's sufficient to call INT here.

As you note, contact is not required for INT here. But neither is intent: on a batted ball, the runner might simply be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Indeed, his intent might have been obviously to AVOID interfering, and he could still be guilty of INT on this play.

So it's hard to know based on what you posted, but I suspect that the defense had a legitimate gripe here.

And I knew that, and the parent-coach and I had that conversation out on the field in a very cordial manner. I didn't mention many of the specifics of our discussion or the play in question because the main point of my post was the Team A coach. The play was just backstory.

This is undoubtedly one of those HTBT plays. There was very definable space, in my opinion, for the fielder to make the play even with the runner in the vicinity. In fact, F6 fielded the ball cleanly but simply didn't make a really strong throw to first so the batter-runner was safe. The bad throw can not be blamed on the runner either, as by this point the runner had already cleared the premises.

I don't think you can stretch "absolute priority" of F6 to such a limit that you completely impede the runners opportunity to make it to a base safely.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by SouthGARef

He says "That wasn't even close." I respond "You're right Coach, it wasn't."

Why would you say this? I'm sure we've all thought that in our heads... but you don't say it."

Originally Posted by SouthGARef

He just kind of stands puzzled, then says "Your timing is awful." I just ignore him.

Kind of funny here... guess we're just different. I think you should have ignored the first comment. But then he made it personal and was showing you up by continuing to shout at you. I would have ignored the first and given a short concise, "That's enough coach" to this one.

Originally Posted by SouthGARef

He's about 20-25 feet from me, so his dugout can of course hear him. "You need to stop anticipating calls." I say "OK Coach, that's enough." He then says "Your timing is awful." At this point I restrict the coach to the dugout (which I know isn't in OBR rules but the TD has allowed us to do because often times these teams only have one coach).

I wish all jurisdictions had this. There are times where an ejection might not be warranted yet but you need to do SOMETHING to head things off - restriction would be perfect for that. Alas...

Originally Posted by SouthGARef

After a couple of minutes, I hear him say something to the effect of "I'm not going anywhere." Should have tossed him. Don't know why I didn't.

OMG, absolutely. You can't restrict the guy and then put up with ANYTHING. You just castrated yourself.

Originally Posted by SouthGARef

I leisurely walk up to my partner, tell him Team A's coach is restricted, and he puts him in the dugout. Wish my partner would have done that on his own, but alas.

Worser and worser... you ABSOLUTELY should have dumped him ... but you didn't... and now your dumping the problem on your partner, who had nothing to do with this situation, and you wish he'd have handled it for you? Egads man.

[SouthGARef]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Why would you say this? I'm sure we've all thought that in our heads... but you don't say it."

Kind of funny here... guess we're just different. I think you should have ignored the first comment. But then he made it personal and was showing you up by continuing to shout at you. I would have ignored the first and given a short concise, "That's enough coach" to this one.

I wish all jurisdictions had this. There are times where an ejection might not be warranted yet but you need to do SOMETHING to head things off - restriction would be perfect for that. Alas...

OMG, absolutely. You can't restrict the guy and then put up with ANYTHING. You just castrated yourself.

Worser and worser... you ABSOLUTELY should have dumped him ... but you didn't... and now your dumping the problem on your partner, who had nothing to do with this situation, and you wish he'd have handled it for you? Egads man.

All worthy constructive criticism. I completely agree that I should have dumped him when he said he wasn't going anywhere. I'm human, I make mistakes. But I don't think hoping my partner would have helped me is out of line. Just because I made a mistake means my partner has to be of little/no help? Isn't part of being a partner being there to back you up when you make a mistake?

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Read Post #42 for my answer.

MTD, Sr.

My apologies. I only had two cups of coffee when I posted that. Two more cups later, and by golly, there it was.