Was I Trigger Happy?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Mark, Jr. (MTD, Jr.) and I umpired a USSSA boys' 12U travel league game (NFHS rules) this afternoon and fun was had by all, .

Let me set the stage. Team H(ome) had played host to Team V(isitor) the day before on the very same diamond on which today's game was played. The umpires for that game were assigned by the same H.S. umpires association that assigned MTD, Jr. and I to today's game. And the umpires in yesterday's game ejected Team V's HC in their game. And today's temperature was in the mid-80's by the time the game started.

MTD, Jr., called a long fly ball down the third base line by a Team V batter foul in the first inning that upset HC-V; later in the second inning V's pitcher made a very funky move, which was a balk, and I took a second or two longer than I normally would to call the balk because I had to run a replay of it in my mind a second before I called the balk. He said he knew it was a balk but I needed to call it quicker and that this was the second time in the game that MTD, Jr., and I had screwed up. I told him to keep his comments to himself if he wanted to remain in the game.

Now for the fun part. Top of the fifth, with runners on 2B and 3B with one out. B5 rips a double in the gap to right-center and both runners score and enter the dugout immediately after scoring. Team H's HC then requests timeout from MTD, Jr., to appeal the runner on 2B missing HP. MTD, Jr., knew that the runner had missed HP and called him out. Immediately the HC-V and one of his assistants charge MTD, Jr., from the dugout screaming that HC-H cannot make a DB appeal and that the runner is safe. As I head to the HP area, because I am not going to let my partner get doubled teamed by two coaches, Team V's 3B Coach decides to join the party. When I got to the party, HC-V got in my face and started yelling at me about the DB appeal: Ejection #1. Then dugout AC-V got in my face telling me that I couldn't eject HC-V because we screwed up: Ejection #2. Order was restored but before we could get the ball back AC-V started yelling at us while he was walking to the parking lot, and the 3B Coach for Team V started laughing and yelling to him that he was really funny: Ejection #3.

As one can see, fun was had by all, .

MTD, Sr.

[KJUmp]

Mark,
Couldn't you at least have left one of those three EJ's for MTD Jr.????
I guess Dad is still "quicker on the draw" than the youngster.
Nice job having your partner's back....bet the two of you had a chuckle replaying all that on the ride home.

[dash_riprock]

12 year-olds. Jeez.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

Mark,
Couldn't you at least have left one of those three EJ's for MTD Jr.????
I guess Dad is still "quicker on the draw" than the youngster.
Nice job having your partner's back....bet the two of you had a chuckle replaying all that on the ride home.

It wasn't a very long drive; the park where the game was played is only 1.3 miles from our home, . We earned our $40 game fee though.

MTD, Sr.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Mark, Jr. (MTD, Jr.) and I umpired a USSSA boys' 12U travel league game (NFHS rules) this afternoon and fun was had by all, .

Let me set the stage. Team H(ome) had played host to Team V(isitor) the day before on the very same diamond on which today's game was played. The umpires for that game were assigned by the same H.S. umpires association that assigned MTD, Jr. and I to today's game. And the umpires in yesterday's game ejected Team V's HC in their game. And today's temperature was in the mid-80's by the time the game started.

MTD, Jr., called a long fly ball down the third base line by a Team V batter foul in the first inning that upset HC-V; later in the second inning V's pitcher made a very funky move, which was a balk, and I took a second or two longer than I normally would to call the balk because I had to run a replay of it in my mind a second before I called the balk. He said he knew it was a balk but I needed to call it quicker and that this was the second time in the game that MTD, Jr., and I had screwed up. I told him to keep his comments to himself if he wanted to remain in the game.

Now for the fun part. Top of the fifth, with runners on 2B and 3B with one out. B5 rips a double in the gap to right-center and both runners score and enter the dugout immediately after scoring. Team H's HC then requests timeout from MTD, Jr., to appeal the runner on 2B missing HP. MTD, Jr., knew that the runner had missed HP and called him out. Immediately the HC-V and one of his assistants charge MTD, Jr., from the dugout screaming that HC-H cannot make a DB appeal and that the runner is safe. As I head to the HP area, because I am not going to let my partner get doubled teamed by two coaches, Team V's 3B Coach decides to join the party. When I got to the party, HC-V got in my face and started yelling at me about the DB appeal: Ejection #1. Then dugout AC-V got in my face telling me that I couldn't eject HC-V because we screwed up: Ejection #2. Order was restored but before we could get the ball back AC-V started yelling at us while he was walking to the parking lot, and the 3B Coach for Team V started laughing and yelling to him that he was really funny: Ejection #3.

As one can see, fun was had by all, .

MTD, Sr.

I guess that the great, know it all, travel ball coaches never read the NHFS rule book, did they? This is one of the reasons I do not officiate travel ball any longer. Dealing with these morons is not worth the meager remittance in my pocket.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Mark, Jr. (MTD, Jr.) and I umpired a USSSA boys' 12U travel league game (NFHS rules) this afternoon and fun was had by all, .

Let me set the stage. Team H(ome) had played host to Team V(isitor) the day before on the very same diamond on which today's game was played. The umpires for that game were assigned by the same H.S. umpires association that assigned MTD, Jr. and I to today's game. And the umpires in yesterday's game ejected Team V's HC in their game. And today's temperature was in the mid-80's by the time the game started.

MTD, Jr., called a long fly ball down the third base line by a Team V batter foul in the first inning that upset HC-V; later in the second inning V's pitcher made a very funky move, which was a balk, and I took a second or two longer than I normally would to call the balk because I had to run a replay of it in my mind a second before I called the balk. He said he knew it was a balk but I needed to call it quicker and that this was the second time in the game that MTD, Jr., and I had screwed up. I told him to keep his comments to himself if he wanted to remain in the game.

Now for the fun part. Top of the fifth, with runners on 2B and 3B with one out. B5 rips a double in the gap to right-center and both runners score and enter the dugout immediately after scoring. Team H's HC then requests timeout from MTD, Jr., to appeal the runner on 2B missing HP. MTD, Jr., knew that the runner had missed HP and called him out. Immediately the HC-V and one of his assistants charge MTD, Jr., from the dugout screaming that HC-H cannot make a DB appeal and that the runner is safe. As I head to the HP area, because I am not going to let my partner get doubled teamed by two coaches, Team V's 3B Coach decides to join the party. When I got to the party, HC-V got in my face and started yelling at me about the DB appeal: Ejection #1. Then dugout AC-V got in my face telling me that I couldn't eject HC-V because we screwed up: Ejection #2. Order was restored but before we could get the ball back AC-V started yelling at us while he was walking to the parking lot, and the 3B Coach for Team V started laughing and yelling to him that he was really funny: Ejection #3.

As one can see, fun was had by all, .

MTD, Sr.

USSSA has it's own rule book. Why were they using NFHS - or did you just think they were?

In USSSA (OBR) there are no dead ball appeals. I can see why a USSSA coach would be really POed.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

USSSA has it's own rule book. Why were they using NFHS - or did you just think they were?

In USSSA (OBR) there are no dead ball appeals. I can see why a USSSA coach would be really POed.

Let me explain further, the league used to be a USSSA travel league and as an umpiring group we can never be sure about these things except that we have been told by the league (shose director is a high school varsity baseball coach) and the teams, which are coached by parents, for the last two years that the league uses NFHS Baseball Rules because the players are going to be playing NFHS when they get to high school and therefore those are the rules they want used.

MTD, Sr.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

USSSA has it's own rule book. Why were they using NFHS - or did you just think they were?

In USSSA (OBR) there are no dead ball appeals. I can see why a USSSA coach would be really POed.

Rich:

You make a good point about the difference between OBR and NFHS rules. I am sure that many of the posters in the baseball and softball forums know that I am a regular poster in the basketball forum both here and in the NFHS Officials Basketball Forum and that I have officiated both NFHS and NCAA Men's and Women's basketball for over 30 years and was a USA Basketball Referee (FIBA Rules) for 15 years and a basketball rules interpreter and instructional chairman for far more years than I care to remember, and this is a bone of contention with me when it comes to summer baseball.

Lets face it, the vast majority of baseball umpires who umpire at the amatuer level umpire games that use NFHS Rules or should be using NFHS Rules. And while the internet has made it very easy for all of us to get copies of the OBR as well as casebook plays in OBR, 99.9% of our games involve players who are 18U and really should be playing NFHS during the summer because that is what they will be playing when they are in jr. high school and high schoool. I have downloaded copies of the OBR and NCAA baseball rules every year as a reference and really learn about the OBR/NCAA/NFHS differences from reading threads here on Officiatin.com, but lets face it, my baseball umpiring experience and expertise is in NFHS Rules and that is the rule set that youth baseball leagues really should be using.

When it comes to basketball the AAU, YBOA, AYBTour, NYBA, and etc. get one thing right, they use NFHS rules, the exception being AAU girls which uses NCAA Women's (which really is not a problem because the NFHS and NCAA Men's/Wemen's rules are derived from a common rule set: the National Basketabll Committee of the United States and Canada). It would be ludricous for youth basketball to be using NBA/WNBA rules for their summer leagues and tournaments.

Just my two cents.

MTD, Sr.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

USSSA has it's own rule book. Why were they using NFHS - or did you just think they were?

In USSSA (OBR) there are no dead ball appeals. I can see why a USSSA coach would be really POed.

Rich:

You make a good point about the difference between OBR and NFHS rules. I am sure that many of the posters in the baseball and softball forums know that I am a regular poster in the basketball forum both here and in the NFHS Officials Basketball Forum and that I have officiated both NFHS and NCAA Men's and Women's basketball for over 30 years and was a USA Basketball Referee (FIBA Rules) for 15 years and a basketball rules interpreter and instructional chairman for far more years than I care to remember, and this is a bone of contention with me when it comes to summer baseball.

Lets face it, the vast majority of baseball umpires who umpire at the amatuer level umpire games that use NFHS Rules or should be using NFHS Rules. And while the internet has made it very easy for all of us to get copies of the OBR as well as casebook plays in OBR, 99.9% of our games involve players who are 18U and really should be playing NFHS during the summer because that is what they will be playing when they are in jr. high school and high schoool. I have downloaded copies of the OBR and NCAA baseball rules every year as a reference and really learn about the OBR/NCAA/NFHS differences from reading threads here on Officiatin.com, but lets face it, my baseball umpiring experience and expertise is in NFHS Rules and that is the rule set that youth baseball leagues really should be using.

When it comes to basketball the AAU, YBOA, AYBTour, NYBA, and etc. get one thing right, they use NFHS rules, the exception being AAU girls which uses NCAA Women's (which really is not a problem because the NFHS and NCAA Men's/Wemen's rules are derived from a common rule set: the National Basketabll Committee of the United States and Canada). It would be ludricous for youth basketball to be using NBA/WNBA rules (even though they are not all that different from NFHS and NCAA than some people would think) for their summer leagues and tournaments.

Just my two cents.

MTD, Sr.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Lets face it, the vast majority of baseball umpires who umpire at the amatuer level umpire games that use NFHS Rules or should be using NFHS Rules. And while the internet has made it very easy for all of us to get copies of the OBR as well as casebook plays in OBR, 99.9% of our games involve players who are 18U and really should be playing NFHS during the summer because that is what they will be playing when they are in jr. high school and high schoool.

Just my two cents.

MTD, Sr.

Mark I respect your background and your opinion, but you did not answer the question.

Were these USSSA teams really playing under FED rules, or did you just think they should be?

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

Mark I respect your background and your opinion, but you did not answer the question.

Were these USSSA teams really playing under FED rules, or did you just think they should be?

He answered it in post #42.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

Mark I respect your background and your opinion, but you did not answer the question.

Were these USSSA teams really playing under FED rules, or did you just think they should be?

Yes he did. Read higher.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

Mark I respect your background and your opinion, but you did not answer the question.

Were these USSSA teams really playing under FED rules, or did you just think they should be?

Read Post #42 for my answer.

MTD, Sr.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Thanks guys for defending my answering the question.

MTD, Sr.

[SouthGARef]

I've had fun the past couple of weekends myself. USSSA 16U ball. Same teams play every week, and about 6-8 of our umpires work the games every week. We get to know each other rather well. OBR rules with USSSA mods.

Last weekend I'm the field umpire in a bracket game. Runner at 2nd, one out. Dribbler to the shortstop, and the runner takes off for third. The runner is in the basepath, and the ball, fielder, and runner all converge in the same general area at one time. However, the runner never made any contact with the fielder and never made any other actions that could be classified as interference. Team A's (the fielding team) HC wasn't there the day before, so one of the parents has been filling in, but the HC is there this day just not in the dugout. The parent coaching the team calls time, and respectfully asks why I did not call interference -- saying that the baserunner has to avoid contact with the fielder. I concur, but disagree that any contact was made and add that there were no actions by the runner that could be construed as interference. He seems somewhat upset, but understands and walks back to the dugout. No biggie. Happens all the time.

Next thing I know the Team A HC is yelling "You don't have to have contact to call interference." I of course don't grant him with any type of response because, since he's not a coach in this game -- he's nothing more than a spectator. Plus, he missed 95% of the conversation I had with the acting-coach that day.

This past weekend, Team A's HC is acting as coach. I have the team in a pool play game. I'm in the field again, with a runner on 3rd and one out. Team A is batting. Soft liner right to the pitcher, who makes the catch. Everyone just kind of pauses, then F1 throws the ball to F5 in an attempt to catch R3 off the bag. R3 is clearly out, and I call him as such. It wasn't really that close. Since this is the third out of the inning, I leisurely jog to my mid-inning position towards RF. Team A's dugout is on the 1BL. After I get to my position, I see Team A's HC at the edge of the grass. He says "That wasn't even close." I respond "You're right Coach, it wasn't." He just kind of stands puzzled, then says "Your timing is awful." I just ignore him. He's about 20-25 feet from me, so his dugout can of course hear him. "You need to stop anticipating calls." I say "OK Coach, that's enough." He then says "Your timing is awful." At this point I restrict the coach to the dugout (which I know isn't in OBR rules but the TD has allowed us to do because often times these teams only have one coach). After a couple of minutes, I hear him say something to the effect of "I'm not going anywhere." Should have tossed him. Don't know why I didn't. He just stands there outside of his dugout. I leisurely walk up to my partner, tell him Team A's coach is restricted, and he puts him in the dugout. Wish my partner would have done that on his own, but alas.

The next day I'm scheduled to work his bracket game as the PU. No problems through six innings. In the bottom of the seventh and final inning, he's down 7-6. First batter comes up and works a full count. Pitch comes right across the outer third (not corner) and I ring him up. Kid takes three steps towards the dugout, then turns looks at me and says "WHAT?! THAT WAS THREE FEET OUTSIDE!" Loud enough so that everyone could hear him. I dump him. Then Team A's coach wants to argue about the ejection. Asks what he's ejected for, I said yelling at an umpire about balls and strikes. He then says "Well, what's he ejected for?" I tell him that I've already explained it, and he knows players are not allowed to yell at umpires. He then tries to accuse me of baiting him and his team into ejections. Of course, nothing is further than the truth. My partner (different one) ushers him away. The last two outs are made, and his team loses 7-6.

He's a pretty prominent HC in the area (his team's not all that great, but he's been around here a while), and I'm new here. Only been calling in this area for about a month. All of our umpires in the association agree that we generally don't have any major problems with anybody but this one team and their fans. Their fans are generally terrible and want to chase you off the field. We've come to the determination that it's all because the HC gives the example that any problems that the team suffers (they went 2-20 last year) can be blamed on umpires. Even the kids are starting to bicker now. It's just a shame.