Strike/out signal

[Rita C]

A young man who will be umpiring with my league is also working games for the
local high school association. I worked with him some on signals and pivot
yesterday. For his strike signal he had a point to the side. Since he was
turning his head to follow the point, and since he will be doing a lot of games
solo in that association, I suggested that he do a hammer signal for strike to
break the habit of looking to the side. So this means he has a hammer for
strike and out.

One of the critiques he got from the high school observer today is that his
strike and out signal are too much alike.

Is this a valid critique?

Rita

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Rita C

One of the critiques he got from the high school observer today is that his
strike and out signal are too much alike.

Is this a valid critique?

Rita

In a word, no.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by mbyron

In a word, no.

+1.
Rita....nice job working with a young umpire and in making some suggestions based on the fact that they'll be working a lot of games solo.

On the "hammer/out signal" debate. I'd be curious to hear from any recent pro school or MLB camp attendees as to what they were taught regarding the hammer; and what if anything did the instructors have to say about a hammer strike call looking too much like an out call.

[JJ]

I point strikes and hammer outs. When I point strikes I do not turn my head away from "forward". Done it for years, and nobody has ever questioned if I was calling a strike or banging an out. Makes it really obvious on that swinging strike three in the dirt where the catcher tags the batter out.

JJ

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by Rita C

A young man who will be umpiring with my league is also working games for the
local high school association. I worked with him some on signals and pivot
yesterday. For his strike signal he had a point to the side. Since he was
turning his head to follow the point, and since he will be doing a lot of games
solo in that association, I suggested that he do a hammer signal for strike to
break the habit of looking to the side. So this means he has a hammer for
strike and out.

One of the critiques he got from the high school observer today is that his
strike and out signal are too much alike.

Is this a valid critique?

Rita

I vote yes. Ask Doug Eddings.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

I vote yes. Ask Doug Eddings.

But that's just it: Eddings signaled the strike with an outstretched arm, and then signaled the out with the fist.

The problem with that play did NOT result from his strike signal looking like his out signal. The problem was that Eddings changed his mind about the call.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by mbyron

But that's just it: Eddings signaled the strike with an outstretched arm, and then signaled the out with the fist.

The problem with that play did NOT result from his strike signal looking like his out signal. The problem was that Eddings changed his mind about the call.

Now I gotta go video searching if I find some time 'cause I think the signals were very similar.

Memories play tricks on us all.

[mrm21711]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Now I gotta go video searching if I find some time 'cause I think the signals were very similar.

Memories play tricks on us all.

Eddings stuck his right arm out all the way (this was part of his normal swinging strike 3 mechanic actually) and then gave a hammer (still part of his normal strike 3 swinging strike mechanic). I remember because a couple of hitters before Pierzynski, Jermaine Dye struck out swinging on a pitch that was cleanly caught and Eddings gave the same mechanic as he did with AJ.

[jkumpire]

Originally Posted by Rita C

A young man who will be umpiring with my league is also working games for the
local high school association. I worked with him some on signals and pivot
yesterday. For his strike signal he had a point to the side. Since he was
turning his head to follow the point, and since he will be doing a lot of games
solo in that association, I suggested that he do a hammer signal for strike to
break the habit of looking to the side. So this means he has a hammer for
strike and out.

One of the critiques he got from the high school observer today is that his
strike and out signal are too much alike.

Is this a valid critique?

Rita

Rita,

To each their own, but teaching the hammer won't help his head going away from where it should be. I am growing to dislike the hammer for strikes, esp. since SB has decreed that it is the only way to call a strike. Sometimes it will take getting burned on a play before people learn the proper way to see the game.

I am getting old I guess...

[Kevin Finnerty]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

Rita,

To each their own, but teaching the hammer won't help his head going away from where it should be. I am growing to dislike the hammer for strikes, esp. since SB has decreed that it is the only way to call a strike. Sometimes it will take getting burned on a play before people learn the proper way to see the game.

I am getting old I guess...

I once had to make a call of a steal of home racing in from C position, because I had a partner turn and step and point and bark out a strike, while the catcher made a lob throw back to the pitcher and R3 broke for home. He never even saw the play.

I like the hammer. It's natural. I also like paying attention to what's going on. And above all else, I like making my own calls on steals of home. (My strike call hammer is slightly different than my out call hammer.)

[bniu]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

Rita,

To each their own, but teaching the hammer won't help his head going away from where it should be. I am growing to dislike the hammer for strikes, esp. since SB has decreed that it is the only way to call a strike. Sometimes it will take getting burned on a play before people learn the proper way to see the game.

I am getting old I guess...

you may want to try this, i find it works really really well and i wish softball would get off their high pedestal and take a look at it too:

For called strikes 1 and 2 as well as check swing strikes, continue to hammer as usual (i use this as a "sell" strike signal)
called strike 3, whatever fancy thing you can come up with.

for swinging strikes 1 and 2, point to the side, right side for right handed batters, left side for lefty hitters. make sure nothing's happening on the bases when you turn.

in either case, if there's a runner stealing, just extend your right arm to the side while facing the pitcher so you can get into position wherever you need to be.

for swinging strike 3, if you have a D3K, yell out 'no catch' and give the safe signal while things go down. Otherwise, i like to pause for a while, let the batter leave the circle, and casually hammer to signal the out.

a lot of MLB umps have gone to the hammer for called strikes but still retain the point for swinging strikes. I like it too since I find turning to the side on called strikes to be a P.I.T.A. whereas i'm way more relaxed on swinging strikes and can more easily turn to the side there...


and btw, can someone explain why you never see any baseball umpire manual that says to point to the side for a strike? I think in the old days, all strikes were hammers as well and umps made calls really really fast until Doug Harvey came around and got them all to slow down their calls...

[Rich]

Originally Posted by bniu

you may want to try this, i find it works really really well and i wish softball would get off their high pedestal and take a look at it too:

For called strikes 1 and 2 as well as check swing strikes, continue to hammer as usual (i use this as a "sell" strike signal)
called strike 3, whatever fancy thing you can come up with.

for swinging strikes 1 and 2, point to the side, right side for right handed batters, left side for lefty hitters. make sure nothing's happening on the bases when you turn.

in either case, if there's a runner stealing, just extend your right arm to the side while facing the pitcher so you can get into position wherever you need to be.

for swinging strike 3, if you have a D3K, yell out 'no catch' and give the safe signal while things go down. Otherwise, i like to pause for a while, let the batter leave the circle, and casually hammer to signal the out.

a lot of MLB umps have gone to the hammer for called strikes but still retain the point for swinging strikes. I like it too since I find turning to the side on called strikes to be a P.I.T.A. whereas i'm way more relaxed on swinging strikes and can more easily turn to the side there...


and btw, can someone explain why you never see any baseball umpire manual that says to point to the side for a strike? I think in the old days, all strikes were hammers as well and umps made calls really really fast until Doug Harvey came around and got them all to slow down their calls...

I don't think it matters an iota how you call strikes, provided your timing is good enough to know that something odd isn't going to happen when you turn your head to the side.

For most young umpires, this is a problem. I find it useful to teach the hammer to young umpires for this reason. As they get experience and develop solid timing and awareness, then they can feel free to do whatever they want.

[bniu]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I don't think it matters an iota how you call strikes, provided your timing is good enough to know that something odd isn't going to happen when you turn your head to the side.

For most young umpires, this is a problem. I find it useful to teach the hammer to young umpires for this reason. As they get experience and develop solid timing and awareness, then they can feel free to do whatever they want.

this is one of the beauties of baseball that i like, no one cares how you make your call as long as you can still be aware of what's going on and not be too much of the next ron luciano. i guess softball likes the hammer since the field is smaller and plays happen quicker, but most softball umpires make calls way too fast for my taste, and yet, the 60 foot version of baseball sees many umpires calling it the same style as the 90 foot game...slow and relaxed on routine calls, makes your sell outs more effective...

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by bniu

this is one of the beauties of baseball that i like, no one cares how you make your call as long as you can still be aware of what's going on and not be too much of the next ron luciano. i guess softball likes the hammer since the field is smaller and plays happen quicker, but most softball umpires make calls way too fast for my taste, and yet, the 60 foot version of baseball sees many umpires calling it the same style as the 90 foot game...slow and relaxed on routine calls, makes your sell outs more effective...

Really?? Just how in the heck did you come to that conclusion? You've never seen or worked with a baseball umpire with poor timing who makes their calls too quick? And I guess that if you happen to be an umpire who does both baseball and softball, your timing disappears when you step on a softball field.

[Forest Ump]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I don't think it matters an iota how you call strikes, provided your timing is good enough to know that something odd isn't going to happen when you turn your head to the side.

+1. Exactly. If your timing is right, you want miss anything. Just don't turn your head with runners on. It's easy to do if your head is in the game.