Rule Books at the Diamond

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by Tim C
Steve:

What chance do you think there would be that a coach could possibly come out to discuss and request a reading of any of those nine rules and the two of you actually come to an answer by reading the simple words in the book?

We have been hashing the same plays around the internet for four years with sitations from JEA, J/R, BRD, "Knotty Problems", the NAPBL Manual and still have serious questions about rules that appear simple to some.

If a coach came out to argue that "the hands ARE part of the bat" and told you to get out the rule book and SHOW HIM that he is wrong, could it be done? Nope.

Even if you require a coach to "find" whatever information in the book that backs his position THEN come out to discuss it that doesn't work either.

You missed the whole point. A *coach* does not determine when the umpire references the rulebook. The *umpire* refers to it whenever he thinks it is appropriate. NOT when the coach thinks it's appropriate.

If I had the rulebook in my back pocket and a coach started complaining that the hands are part of the bat - I would *not* get out my rulebook to show him that he's wrong! That's not why I would have it available.

It is there from MY use ... not HIS. I have to admit, there are some esoteric rules in there that I may not be 100% sure about it some odd play should pop up.

If a fielder throws his glove at a thrown ball and hits it ... what is the base award? And how does this effect other runners? Does thed award start at the point where the runner was when the infraction occurred -or- is it at the time of the throw? Or is it at the time of the pitch? Is the ball dead when this happens?

I'm pretty confident I know all these answers. But, if coached challenged me, I'd probably take a peek just to make sure I'm getting it right. My confidence factor would not be 100%. If it was, I wouldn't bother. I'd just let him protest the game without any need to reference the rulebook.

[Bfair]

Originally posted by Tim C
Steve:

What chance do you think there would be that a coach could possibly come out to discuss and request a reading of any of those nine rules and the two of you actually come to an answer by reading the simple words in the book?

We have been hashing the same plays around the internet for four years with sitations from JEA, J/R, BRD, "Knotty Problems", the NAPBL Manual and still have serious questions about rules that appear simple to some.

If a coach came out to argue that "the hands ARE part of the bat" and told you to get out the rule book and SHOW HIM that he is wrong, could it be done? Nope.

Even if you require a coach to "find" whatever information in the book that backs his position THEN come out to discuss it that doesn't work either.

Actually, the point I was trying to get across doesn't deal with ME carrying a book on the field to refer to, but rather, the attitude some umpires have that they won't allow a book on the field.

I don't think it's appropriate to NOT allow a book on the field. Those are the rules the game is played by. IMO, the coach has a right to have a book and to refer to it if asking a question. Still, he better have that book open to exactly the point that he wants to question. I'm not going to page through the book with him to show him what he wants. He better know what he wants---and that is to disprove a call---otherwise he wouldn't be there. The book needs to be ready for him to use as a tool. If not, it serves no purpose other than for him to look up and verify the decision later.

He's welcome to state what basis he has for any protest, but he better be ready to protest. I won't make him reference a rule number for his protest---just a concept. The book will serve little purpose to him unless he's got it open specifically to what he wants.

I had a Fed game this year where a coach listed his pitcher as a P/DH so that if he pulled his pitcher he could remain as a DH. It wasn't going to happen in Fed, and he was told so at the pregame. He told me to show him in the book that he couldn't have a P/DH. I told him how it was going to be, advised him I'd get my book between innings as a courtesy to him, but we were ready to start the game without his P/DH. He grudgingly accepted that fact, and I provided him the courtesy between innnings by getting the book and showing it to him. If he wanted to continue to argue, it may have resulted in putting him on the bench and getting another coach out for the pregame. Showing him the rule was something I didn't have to do, but chose to do. Yet, I wasn't going to delay the game because of his lack of rules knowledge.


Just my opinion,

Freix

[ballsandstrikes]

Somewhere along here I believe I saw someone say they were not afraid of a manager pulling out a rulebook during the game. I agree only because if a coach does that on my field (happened 3 times in 10 years) they are QUICKLY ejected from the game. Mind you I dont have a quick thumb and will even tolerate a bit of barking on balls and strikes. I have 9 ejections in 10 years and two of those were for bat throwing. In any case if I am not mistaking, there is a rule somewhere in there about the book not being brought onto the field by a manager.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by ballsandstrikes
In any case if I am not mistaking, there is a rule somewhere in there about the book not being brought onto the field by a manager.

Reference, please.

[ballsandstrikes]

I am out of town and dont have the book handy. I believe it is in the NF rules and not OBR but I could be wrong. In any case, someone bringing a book out on my diamond is a blatant case of showing me up. It hasnt happened in a few years. Hopefully someone with a book can find it.

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by ballsandstrikes
Somewhere along here I believe I saw someone say they were not afraid of a manager pulling out a rulebook during the game. I agree only because if a coach does that on my field (happened 3 times in 10 years) they are QUICKLY ejected from the game. Mind you I dont have a quick thumb and will even tolerate a bit of barking on balls and strikes. I have 9 ejections in 10 years and two of those were for bat throwing. In any case if I am not mistaking, there is a rule somewhere in there about the book not being brought onto the field by a manager.

In my opinion, that would be a ridiculous ejection that is not only overly officious, it makes the umpire look defensive and afraid of the rulebook.

Don't eject the coach simply because he has a rulebook on the field. Eject the coach because he won't leave the field when instructed. The reason you might be instructing him to leave the field may be because you have no desire nor need to read the rulebook regarding your ruling. If the coach persists in being on the field after being told to leave - you eject him - whether he has a rulebook in his possession or not.

Umpires who eject simply because a coach approaches him with rulebook in hand look heavy-handed and defensive.

[ballsandstrikes]

I totaly disagree with you but you are entitled to your opinion. If I want to pull the rulebook out on the field that is up to me as the umpire. I have had coaches ask me to check a rule and I have. For high school I keep the thing in my ball bag and for college it is in my field bag. I will not tolerate a coach running onto the field waving a book in front of the crowd.

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by ballsandstrikes
I totaly disagree with you but you are entitled to your opinion. If I want to pull the rulebook out on the field that is up to me as the umpire. I have had coaches ask me to check a rule and I have. For high school I keep the thing in my ball bag and for college it is in my field bag. I will not tolerate a coach running onto the field waving a book in front of the crowd.

If a coach runs toward you in a threatening manner, I could understand ejecting him for that reason.

If a coach screams at you, I could understand ejecting him for that reason.

But just because he has a rulebook in his hand? Give me a break!

What if the coach has a rulebook in his hand and he calmly approaches you without "waving" it and without screaming? Are you going to eject im soley on the basis that there is a rulebook in his hand as he entered the field? Is that what your ejection report is going to say?

You need to eject people for STANDARD reasons ... not PERSONAL pet peeves.

If you don't like rulebooks on the field then you should tell the coach to take it away. If he refuses, then eject him just as you would eject any coach for failing to comply with an instruction from an umpire. And the ejection report wouldn't read, "I ejected him because he had a rulebook on the field," it would say, "I ejected him because he failed to exit the field when instructed."

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[Tim C]

David:

I'll continue:

I have never seen a basketball ref carry a rule book on to the court. At any level.

I have never seen a football official carry a rule rook onto the field. At any level.

I have never seen a wrestling official carry a rule book to the mats. At any level.

And it goes on and on . . .

You BETTER know the rules well enough before you walk onto the field.

David, just WHAT would you look up in the rulke book anyway?

We have learned on this (and other boards) that the rules that are discussed are usually rulings based in a great amount of research and tradition.

So as I leave this thread I just offer the following advice to all of you:

"Leave the rule book in your car!

"Know it, and live it . . . but most of all, Leave It!"

[David B]

I have to agree with Tim. Since most of the leagues around here don't have protests anyway it even makes it more of a reason to leave it in the bag.

Thanks
David

Originally posted by Tim C
David:

I'll continue:

I have never seen a basketball ref carry a rule book on to the court. At any level.

I have never seen a football official carry a rule rook onto the field. At any level.

I have never seen a wrestling official carry a rule book to the mats. At any level.

And it goes on and on . . .

You BETTER know the rules well enough before you walk onto the field.

David, just WHAT would you look up in the rulke book anyway?

We have learned on this (and other boards) that the rules that are discussed are usually rulings based in a great amount of research and tradition.

So as I leave this thread I just offer the following advice to all of you:

"Leave the rule book in your car!

"Know it, and live it . . . but most of all, Leave It!"

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by Tim C
David:

I'll continue:

I have never seen a basketball ref carry a rule book on to the court. At any level.

I have never seen a football official carry a rule rook onto the field. At any level.

I have never seen a wrestling official carry a rule book to the mats. At any level.

And it goes on and on . . .

Actually we have two different topics going on within this thread:

1. Should umpires have their rulebook with them when calling a game?

MY OPINION: Not physically on them, like in their back pocket, but it should be readily available. "Readily available" does not mean in the parking lot, in the trunk of your car.

2. Should an umpire eject a coach for bringing a rulebook on the field?

MY OPINION: The simple act of bringing a rulebook onto the field is not something that warrants an ejection. It would only deserve an ejection if the umpire told the coach that he (the umpire) had no need nor desire to reference the rulebook, yet the coach persisted.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by ballsandstrikes
I am out of town and dont have the book handy. I believe it is in the NF rules and not OBR but I could be wrong. In any case, someone bringing a book out on my diamond is a blatant case of showing me up. It hasnt happened in a few years. Hopefully someone with a book can find it.

Well, FED 3-3-1h says "have any object in his posession in the coach's boxother than a rule book ..."

So, apparently in FED, it's okay for the coach, in some instances, to have the rule book on the field.

IT's how he uses it that might get him in trouble.

[Tim C]

1) If I am UIC "you" are not going to carry an equipment bag ("Ditty Bag" best description ever - Vince Lombardi) to the field. Since that is the case you would either do what I say ("Leave that sucker in the car") or try to sneek it on to the field (which is fine - if you open it you'll be working FROM the car).

2) You have failed to even try to answer "what" you'd be lookin' up in the book anyway.

Your advice is fine . . . NEVER take the rule book to the field.

Your answer is just an attempt to cover that you have said, repeatedly, the book should be on the field.

A2D from here forth.

[GarthB]

Tim, Tim, Tim, Tim, Timmyyyyyyyyyy

Need any aspirin yet?

[Striker991]

Too much American Idol for you guys....