MLB umpire says that you can balk with a dead ball!

[Jim Porter]

Nanny-nanny boo-boo. You're a liar too. You lied and said you had all that history and tradition and rule on your side and you didn't. You lied. Liar, liar, liar.

See how much fun it can be when the children can't get past name-calling? Talking about being disappointed, Garth, your inability to be civil, respectful, or even adult disappoints me. The Garth I used to know has been replaced with an eight-year-old.

Take your Tonka toys and go home. My mommy won't let me play at your house anymore. She's says you're a bad influence.

[insatty]

Jim Porter gets it right once again.

[GarthB]

The art of deception is second only to the art of mis-direction. It is obvious you have mastered both.

Facts are facts Jim:

"J/R does not say a balk cannot be called during a dead ball. Their book agrees with me."

Jim Porter, or someone signing his name

"JEA does not say a balk cannot be called during a dead ball. His book agrees with me."

Jim Porter, or someone signing his name.

"There is no history to call a balk during a deadball. There is no ruling to call a balk during a deadball. There is no rule to call a balk during a deadball There is no practice, outside of Little League, to call a balk during a deadball."

GB

"There is no place in baseball...I repeat NO PLACE IN BASEBALL that you can cite for calling a balk during a deadball. None, nada, doesn't exist, nowhere, no how."

GB

Now then, Jim, or whoever you are, which two of the above statements claim written support for one's position?

The first two quotes untruthfully claim that two books support a position.

The second two quotes state that there is no support in any of the listed materials or sources to support a position.

The second two quotes are true.

The first two are not.

Maybe on the stage you can escape into your fantasy world, but this is the real world. Joke all you want. Act like a three year old all you want. Try mis-direction, acting cute, deception, acts of innocence...anything you want. Facts are facts.

Here's another. You won't have to worry about me posting in reponse to you ever again. I do not deal with people who cannot be trusted.

[Jim Porter]

Talk about theatrics, that was quite an exit, Garth. It had a touch of Mamet, a dash of Tennessee Williams, and just the tiniest sprinkling of Moliere sarcasm.

No Thornton Wilder in you, that's for sure.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Jim Porter

I cannot show you a rule that allows a balk during a dead ball any more than you can show me a rule that disallows a balk during a dead ball.

I'm only on page two of this thread, and this might be covered elsewhere, but ...

5.02 "While the ball is dead, ... no bases may be run ... except ... as the result of acts which occurred while the ball was alive."

So, while you might be able to have a "balk", I don't think you can award bases for it. And, if you can't award bases for it, what's the point?

[Rich Ives]

Originally posted by insatty
Yes, Freix. Offsides (encroachment in FED), illegal procedure (false start in FED and NCAA), and too many men on the field (illegal substitution in FED and NCAA) are dead-ball fouls. The analogy is inexcapable. Penalize the balk.

Subs cross the line "all the time" between plays as they shuttle in and out. It doesn't make them offsides or whatever. Plus, I beleive, you cannot call too many men if the extras get off the field bsfore the snap.

[Jim Porter]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

I'm only on page two of this thread, and this might be covered elsewhere, but ...

5.02 "While the ball is dead, ... no bases may be run ... except ... as the result of acts which occurred while the ball was alive."

So, while you might be able to have a "balk", I don't think you can award bases for it. And, if you can't award bases for it, what's the point?

I agree that your logic is quite sound, Bob. However, it is this same rule that tells us, "After the umpire calls "Play" the ball is alive and in play . . ."

Well, we know that's not true. It's not just the umpire's call of play that is required to put the ball in play.

You could be right. Both sides seem to have sound arguments. That's what makes this such a debate. But it is possible that the language of 5.02 simply includes an oversight like so many other OBR entries. Or, I could be flat-out wrong.

[senior]

It seems like only yesterday, (or several months ago), that Pete Booth wondered why this board wasn't very active, and what could be done to get it in gear.

Pete, it looks like you've found the answer. This thread is far and away a real doozy as far as involvement and volume is concerned. We've got folks fighting, arguing, old voices getting back in action, and naturally, no real consensus on the original question.

No doubt about it, Pete, the good old days are coming back.


Senior

[Rich]

...I got nailed good.

I was working an MSBL game with Jim and was in deep B (for 2-man, it was deep -- which is usually where I work with R3 only).

Laser beam hits me right on the keyster.

It was a strange field for me, so I had my wallet in my back pocket instead of in my trunk or glove box. Good thing, cause the ball hit my wallet and split my driver's license in half and broke my BCBS card.

I wasn't the first guy he hit that year, apparently.

I don't remember talking bad about people getting hit, although I won't even argue that point. Maybe I did. Sometimes you have to get hit by lightning to understand it.

After I got hit, Jim and I later ejected two people. The bruise AROUND the wallet did the blue-black to green-yellow thing over the next few weeks. Ah, memories.

Rich

[Jim Porter]

In Rich's defense, it was indeed a laser beam that got him. One of the hottest shots I've ever seen. It was literally off the bat and up against Rich's derriere in the blink of an eye. He had time to turn so it got him in the wallet, and that was all he had time for. If he had tried to step out of the way, Rich would no longer be a, "he." I must admit having a hard time regaining my composure behind the plate. I felt bad for Rich, but it was just so damn funny.

You'll be glad to know, Rich, that whole league went to wooden bats this year. Now you'd see more $40 dribblers than home runs or shots like you took. It's a glorious thing for the umpires. We are the envy of all umpires in the state. Everyone suddenly wants to work our games. And the players are planning a huge bonfire at the end of the season! Oh, and they announced games at Fenway Park next year - - woo-hoo!

[Boone]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
...I got nailed good.

I was working an MSBL game with Jim and was in deep B (for 2-man, it was deep -- which is usually where I work with R3 only).



Rich

Rich, this story makes sense because I remember you from NBUA and you seemed to always work the bases. You usually faced the plate however!

Your old friend, Booney.

[Rich]

Once again, "Boone," and I've told you this before, I worked about a hundred games in Seattle that year. And 53% of those games were plate games.

Dave Hensley can verify that I do my share of plate games, as can Jim Porter.

All I know is if you want my Al Clark shin guards, you better be nicer to me :-)

Rich

[Edited by Rich Fronheiser on Aug 7th, 2002 at 06:53 AM]

[Rich]

I have never seen a ball hit so hard and probably won't for quite some time. Stunned as I was, I was still able to make the umpire interference call and place the runners and deflect a mild argument that I should've scored the runner on third "cause he would've scored anyway."

There were no bat restrictions on that league last season, far as I know.

Now, the league I worked in MetroWest Massachusetts used wooden bats last year. I think I saw one home run the entire season.

I like wood bats, but at the same time, I don't think the average player is skilled enough to use them. The game suffers TOO much. Some kind of middle ground must be reached.

Actually, I think it was reached back in the early 80s. When I was of LL age, we had metal bats. But these things weren't the whipping sticks of today. Those bats were heavy and the ball didn't jump off them.

Or I just stunk as a player (actually, I was third in my ten team league in batting average when I was 12 and it was the highlight of my athletic "career"). Sigh.

Rich

[Richardr10]

Questions from Richard

R2, R3, extra innings, The defense intentionally walks the batter to load
the bases. Manager now calls time (dead ball) and goes out to talk to his
pitcher. Then, F3 sneakily keeps the ball and the pitcher mounts the rubber
without the ball. The deceived plate umpire calls "play" and the deceived R1
leads off and is tagged out by F3. U1 calls a balk and the the winning run
scores from third; game over; Can this be Done? If yes why? and if No why?
or in other words can a BALK be called on a dead ball?
>
Hi Richard,

The ball could not become live on this play since the pitcher did not have
the ball. The ball can become live only when the pitcher has the ball on
the rubber AND the ball is put in play by the plate umpire (and no other
umpire is signaling "time"). In the above play, as soon as it is discovered
that the pitcher did not have the ball, the umpires would correct the
situation, putting the runners back on their bases and starting over. There
is no balk, and there cannot be a balk if the ball is dead.

Thanks for your questions!

World Umpires Association

[Edited by Richardr10 on Aug 7th, 2002 at 11:19 AM]

[GarthB]

Richard: My question and response were both a bit more brief, but the result is the same.

I hope that Mr. Boone and Insatty are satisfied:

Copy of email to and from the WUA:

> Questions from Garth Benham :
>
> Can a pitcher balk when the ball is dead?
>
Hi Garth,

No.

Thanks for your question!

World Umpires Association