Force play or time play?

[jicecone]

No matter how this out takes place, with a actual appeal or a tag during continuing action, the third out was a force out. Citations already stated, no runs score. The timing of R2 touching the plate was irrelavant.

[dash_riprock]

J/R agrees with you Rita. According to that manual, the tag of R1 is not an appeal, and it is not a force, so R2 scores on the time play.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by jicecone

No matter how this out takes place, with a actual appeal or a tag during continuing action, the third out was a force out. Citations already stated, no runs score. The timing of R2 touching the plate was irrelavant.

What if R1 had continued to home and was tagged out there. Would you call that a force out?

[JJ]

Hmmmm....If R1 is tagged between second and third, I've got a time play UNLESS the defense appeals that R1 missed second base. That's a "fourth out" and the defense can pick the inning-ending out that's most advantageous to them. Logically, they should pick the appeal play, which would be a force out, which would negate the run.

JJ

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by JJ

Hmmmm....If R1 is tagged between second and third, I've got a time play UNLESS the defense appeals that R1 missed second base. That's a "fourth out" and the defense can pick the inning-ending out that's most advantageous to them. Logically, they should pick the appeal play, which would be a force out, which would negate the run.

JJ

I agree. It seems that RefMag either failed to post part of the situation, or missed the answer (neither of which is paticularly rare).

[mbyron]

Maybe the question is this: R1 is tagged while off base. If that's the only play on him, then his out is NOT a force play. In other words, if the defense merely treats him as a runner off base, tagging him by itself does not constitute a valid appeal.

If he's tagged in order the APPEAL the missed base, then his out IS a force play.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Maybe the question is this: R1 is tagged while off base. If that's the only play on him, then his out is NOT a force play. In other words, if the defense merely treats him as a runner off base, tagging him by itself does not constitute a valid appeal.

Yes, that was Rita's OP question.

J/R has a nearly identical play (except with R1 & R3 instead of R1 & R2). The tag of R1 - who is returning to 2nd base to correct his baserunning error - is neither an appeal nor a force out, and it's a time play at the plate.

What I can't understand is: J/R says a subsequent appeal of R1's miss is not allowed. Why not? The tag of R1 is certainly part of the continuous action caused by and following the batted ball (how can it NOT be if there is a time play at the plate), so, according to MLBUM and everyone else, the defense does not lose it's right to appeal R1's miss.

BTW: Rita - great catch and thanks for initiating a discussion involving something other than clothing!

[SanDiegoSteve]

J/R would indeed be wrong in this case. The defense may legally appeal the missed base, which would result in an advantageous fourth out, and no runs score as the 3rd out would be the result of a force.

[Kevin Finnerty]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

BTW: Rita - great catch and thanks for initiating a discussion involving something other than clothing!

I thought that it was a good deal on some great shirts, and I wanted everyone to know about it. I'm sorry I didn't clear it with you, first. Please make a list of your personal standards and preferences, and I will make a better effort to avoid offending you.

[Dave Reed]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

J/R has a nearly identical play (except with R1 & R3 instead of R1 & R2). The tag of R1 - who is returning to 2nd base to correct his baserunning error - is neither an appeal nor a force out, and it's a time play at the plate.

What I can't understand is: J/R says a subsequent appeal of R1's miss is not allowed. Why not? The tag of R1 is certainly part of the continuous action caused by and following the batted ball (how can it NOT be if there is a time play at the plate), so, according to MLBUM and everyone else, the defense does not lose it's right to appeal R1's miss.

My J/R is from 2004, and a nearly similar play is on page 84, the last page of Section 10 Appeals. In the 2004 edition, J/R allow the appeal for the 4th out. So apparently dash has a newer edition of J/R which has a changed ruling.

I haven't seen anything in the MLBUM about the subject. But consider the actual rule: (From 7.10(d))
Appeal plays may require an umpire to recognize an apparent “fourth out.” If the third out is made during a play in which an appeal play is sustained on another runner, the appeal play decision takes precedence in determining the out. If there is more than one appeal during a play that ends a half-inning, the defense may elect to take the out that gives it the advantage.

The rule taken as written says that R1 can not be appealed for a 4th out, because he is the runner who made the 3rd out, and is therefore not "another" runner.

So my question is: Can anyone quote an authority (other than an old J/R interp) which says that once R1 has been tagged for the third out, he can be appealed for a 4th out because he missed 2nd ?