Pinch Hitter/ Batting Out of Order

[Spence]

Lineup

Al
Bill
Charlie


Al batting but Charlie is on deck.

Al doubles.

Manager sees Charlie coming to the plate and decides to pinch-hit for him with Dusty.

Dusty doubles in the run. Before next pitch defensive team manager notifies the umpire of the batting out of order.

Bill is declared out.

Who is now up? Can Charlie bat? Is Dusty still in the game for Charlie?

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Spence

Lineup

Al
Bill
Charlie


Al batting but Charlie is on deck.

Al doubles.

Manager sees Charlie coming to the plate and decides to pinch-hit for him with Dusty.

Dusty doubles in the run. Before next pitch defensive team manager notifies the umpire of the batting out of order.

Bill is declared out.

Who is now up? Can Charlie bat? Is Dusty still in the game for Charlie?

First question--was Dusty an announced or unannounced sub? If unannounced, then he really subbed for Bill--he took Bill's position in the box. There is no BOO and Charlie is up.

If announced, Bill is out, and Dusty is up. He is still in the game for Charlie.

Now, the tricky thing is, if announced, the umpire has to figure out if the substitution is projected, as Charlie is not the rightful batter, and disallow it, or if it is incidental to the BOO.

[RPatrino]

Let me just play devils advocate here. How can, as the plate umpire, you announce a substitution you know is not legal? Just thinking out loud here. Absent this little warp in the time/space continum, I have an unannounced substitution, Charlies up, Dusty is in for Bill.

[Spence]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

Let me just play devils advocate here. How can, as the plate umpire, you announce a substitution you know is not legal? Just thinking out loud here. Absent this little warp in the time/space continum, I have an unannounced substitution, Charlies up, Dusty is in for Bill.

I'm not an umpire so let me ask.

Can a manager only announce a sub when the subbed-for player is due to bat? Can't he announce it , say, when there's one more batter to go before his PH comes in?

[Spence]

Originally Posted by Matt

If announced, Bill is out, and Dusty is up. He is still in the game for Charlie.
Now, the tricky thing is, if announced, the umpire has to figure out if the substitution is projected, as Charlie is not the rightful batter, and disallow it, or if it is incidental to the BOO.

Educate me on this last section. What do you mean when you say "substitution is projected?"

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Spence

I'm not an umpire so let me ask.

Can a manager only announce a sub when the subbed-for player is due to bat? Can't he announce it , say, when there's one more batter to go before his PH comes in?

Originally Posted by Spence

Educate me on this last section. What do you mean when you say "substitution is projected?"

Your two questions are related.

A projected substitution is one that does not occur at the time that the manager indicates his desire, such as stating that "Xavier will hit for Bill when it's his turn." These are not legal. The substitution can only occur when the switch occurs at the same time that the manager indicates it. On offense, this means that a substitution can only occur with a live runner or a current batter. On defense, this means that the switch must be made at the time of the announcement, and that the player being replaced must be in the field.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Matt

First question--was Dusty an announced or unannounced sub? If unannounced, then he really subbed for Bill--he took Bill's position in the box. There is no BOO and Charlie is up.

If announced, Bill is out, and Dusty is up. He is still in the game for Charlie.

Now, the tricky thing is, if announced, the umpire has to figure out if the substitution is projected, as Charlie is not the rightful batter, and disallow it, or if it is incidental to the BOO.

I agree. And if the coach sends Dusty up to bat for Charlie when it's Bill's turn, then HE doesn't think it's a "projected" substitution. The umpire should allow it and proceed with the game.

In other words, it doesn't matter if it is IN FACT a projected substitution. I'm not going to prevent BOO just because the coach is subbing.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by Spence

Lineup

Al
Bill
Charlie


Al batting but Charlie is on deck.

Al doubles.

Manager sees Charlie coming to the plate and decides to pinch-hit for him with Dusty.

Dusty doubles in the run. Before next pitch defensive team manager notifies the umpire of the batting out of order.

Bill is declared out.

Who is now up? Can Charlie bat? Is Dusty still in the game for Charlie?

Bill is not out in this case. Dusty batted for Bill (whether the manager realized it or not). There was no BOO, Charlie is the batter.

The substitution saved the offense the BOO in this case.

[jicecone]

This shouldn't happen if your keeping a lineup card. Having said that, it may be Fallball and things are much more relaxed however, as PU, I am going to make sure the change (if announced) is registered with the other team before we proceed.

Now, if the change is unannounced, then Dusty batted for Bill and Charlie is up next.

Be proactive in these situations and you will have less problems to resolve.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by Matt

Your two questions are related.

A projected substitution is one that does not occur at the time that the manager indicates his desire, such as stating that "Xavier will hit for Bill when it's his turn." These are not legal. The substitution can only occur when the switch occurs at the same time that the manager indicates it. On offense, this means that a substitution can only occur with a live runner or a current batter. On defense, this means that the switch must be made at the time of the announcement, and that the player being replaced must be in the field.

Under OBR and the MLBUM there is NO such limitation.

LL has that limitation in its tournament rules but not in its regular season rules.

[mikebran]

I love it when such a short query can generate so much good discussion. It is a very good question. And thanks for the announced v unnounced. I would not have thought of that, but it is valid and affects rulings.

Let me play with this:

Lineup

Al
Bill
Charlie

Al batting but Charlie is on deck.

Al doubles.

Manager sees Charlie coming to the plate and decides to pinch-hit for him with Dusty.

Dusty doubles in the run. Before next pitch defensive team manager notifies the umpire of the batting out of order.

Lets break at the Manager Sees portion. Two scenarios now.

1. He simply calls Charlie back and says, "Dusty go hit". Dusty goes to bat and NOTHING is said about it. Absolutely unnounced.

2. He calls time and goes to PU to announce his change. He says Dusty is hitting for Charlie. PU pulls lineup card and crosses out Charlie and inserts Dusty.

In #1. If DEF appealed after Dusty double there is NO violation, yet. Dusty in game on line 2 for BILL. Charlie is DUE UP.

[mikebran]

I love it when such a short query can generate so much good discussion. It is a very good question. And thanks for the announced v unnounced. I would not have thought of that, but it is valid and affects rulings.

Let me play with this:

Lineup

Al
Bill
Charlie

Al batting but Charlie is on deck.

Al doubles.

Manager sees Charlie coming to the plate and decides to pinch-hit for him with Dusty.

Dusty doubles in the run. Before next pitch defensive team manager notifies the umpire of the batting out of order.

Lets break at the Manager Sees portion. Two scenarios now.

1. He simply calls Charlie back and says, "Dusty go hit". Dusty goes to bat and NOTHING is said about it. Absolutely unnounced.

2. He calls time and goes to PU to announce his change. He says Dusty is hitting for Charlie. PU pulls lineup card and crosses out Charlie and inserts Dusty.

In #1. If DEF appealed after Dusty double there is NO violation, yet. Dusty in game on line 2 for BILL. Charlie is DUE UP.

in #2. I wonder if PU is even going to notice. AFter all, he is simply looking at the card, line 3. Charlie and writes in Dusty. PU is not tasked with looking out at field and seeing who is on 2nd, or remembering that the guy on 2nd was the last batter. Seems it is going to happen as coach wants. Dusty gets a hit. Appeal. Bill called OUT and Dusty HITS AGAIN! (or does he?)

more #2. But what if as PU you just happen to know that Al just batted and is on 2nd and you KNOW that Bill is due up and you know this coach is messing up. But you furtively glance over at the DEF dugout door and there is Coach Rulebook looking straight at you and Coach R is a good guy overall, but he is sending telepathic messages that he knows what is going on.

Do you tell OFF Mnger, "Uh, you know, this is a problem?"

[robbie]

Originally Posted by mikebran

in #2. I wonder if PU is even going to notice. AFter all, he is simply looking at the card, line 3. Charlie and writes in Dusty. PU is not tasked with looking out at field and seeing who is on 2nd, or remembering that the guy on 2nd was the last batter. Seems it is going to happen as coach wants. Dusty gets a hit. Appeal. Bill called OUT and Dusty HITS AGAIN! (or does he?)


more #2. But what if as PU you just happen to know that Al just batted and is on 2nd and you KNOW that Bill is due up and you know this coach is messing up. But you furtively glance over at the DEF dugout door and there is Coach Rulebook looking straight at you and Coach R is a good guy overall, but he is sending telepathic messages that he knows what is going on.

Do you tell OFF Mnger, "Uh, you know, this is a problem?"

#2:
Yes, he does.

more #2:

Easy solution:

PU says: "So when C comes up to bat, you want to sub D for C? Correct?"

OC will likey smell something wrong at that point.

If not, simply repeat: "OK, so I will have D for C when C comes to bat."

If still no light bulb by the OC - well, so be it.................

[jicecone]

I think your over-thinking this way too much.

If Dusty, Peter, Sarah, Mikey, Franky, Harry or anyone else (except Charlie), that is not in the game come in and bat in Bill's spot unannounced, they are then the legit batter and substitute (pinch hitter) for Bill. Period.

If you let the second scenario happen, where he substitutes Dusty for Charlie, when Bill is up, then you deserve all the crap that going to take place. Take control of your game and this won't happen. There is no need to discuss what if's after that because it is not going to happen in my game , especially with a lineup card.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by jicecone

There is no need to discuss what if's after that because it is not going to happen in my game , especially with a lineup card.

First batter of the inning. Coach tells you, "Dusty for Charlie." You're going to notice that Baker should have been the correct batter? If so, you pay way more attention to the batting orders and.or write more stuff on the line-up card than I do.