Pinch Hitter/ Batting Out of Order

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Spence

Lineup

Al
Bill
Charlie


Al batting but Charlie is on deck.

Al doubles.

Manager sees Charlie coming to the plate and decides to pinch-hit for him with Dusty.

Dusty doubles in the run. Before next pitch defensive team manager notifies the umpire of the batting out of order.

Bill is declared out.

Who is now up? Can Charlie bat? Is Dusty still in the game for Charlie?

First question--was Dusty an announced or unannounced sub? If unannounced, then he really subbed for Bill--he took Bill's position in the box. There is no BOO and Charlie is up.

If announced, Bill is out, and Dusty is up. He is still in the game for Charlie.

Now, the tricky thing is, if announced, the umpire has to figure out if the substitution is projected, as Charlie is not the rightful batter, and disallow it, or if it is incidental to the BOO.

[RPatrino]

Let me just play devils advocate here. How can, as the plate umpire, you announce a substitution you know is not legal? Just thinking out loud here. Absent this little warp in the time/space continum, I have an unannounced substitution, Charlies up, Dusty is in for Bill.

[Spence]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

Let me just play devils advocate here. How can, as the plate umpire, you announce a substitution you know is not legal? Just thinking out loud here. Absent this little warp in the time/space continum, I have an unannounced substitution, Charlies up, Dusty is in for Bill.

I'm not an umpire so let me ask.

Can a manager only announce a sub when the subbed-for player is due to bat? Can't he announce it , say, when there's one more batter to go before his PH comes in?

[Spence]

Originally Posted by Matt

If announced, Bill is out, and Dusty is up. He is still in the game for Charlie.
Now, the tricky thing is, if announced, the umpire has to figure out if the substitution is projected, as Charlie is not the rightful batter, and disallow it, or if it is incidental to the BOO.

Educate me on this last section. What do you mean when you say "substitution is projected?"

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Spence

I'm not an umpire so let me ask.

Can a manager only announce a sub when the subbed-for player is due to bat? Can't he announce it , say, when there's one more batter to go before his PH comes in?

Originally Posted by Spence

Educate me on this last section. What do you mean when you say "substitution is projected?"

Your two questions are related.

A projected substitution is one that does not occur at the time that the manager indicates his desire, such as stating that "Xavier will hit for Bill when it's his turn." These are not legal. The substitution can only occur when the switch occurs at the same time that the manager indicates it. On offense, this means that a substitution can only occur with a live runner or a current batter. On defense, this means that the switch must be made at the time of the announcement, and that the player being replaced must be in the field.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by Matt

Your two questions are related.

A projected substitution is one that does not occur at the time that the manager indicates his desire, such as stating that "Xavier will hit for Bill when it's his turn." These are not legal. The substitution can only occur when the switch occurs at the same time that the manager indicates it. On offense, this means that a substitution can only occur with a live runner or a current batter. On defense, this means that the switch must be made at the time of the announcement, and that the player being replaced must be in the field.

Under OBR and the MLBUM there is NO such limitation.

LL has that limitation in its tournament rules but not in its regular season rules.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Matt

First question--was Dusty an announced or unannounced sub? If unannounced, then he really subbed for Bill--he took Bill's position in the box. There is no BOO and Charlie is up.

If announced, Bill is out, and Dusty is up. He is still in the game for Charlie.

Now, the tricky thing is, if announced, the umpire has to figure out if the substitution is projected, as Charlie is not the rightful batter, and disallow it, or if it is incidental to the BOO.

I agree. And if the coach sends Dusty up to bat for Charlie when it's Bill's turn, then HE doesn't think it's a "projected" substitution. The umpire should allow it and proceed with the game.

In other words, it doesn't matter if it is IN FACT a projected substitution. I'm not going to prevent BOO just because the coach is subbing.

[jicecone]

This shouldn't happen if your keeping a lineup card. Having said that, it may be Fallball and things are much more relaxed however, as PU, I am going to make sure the change (if announced) is registered with the other team before we proceed.

Now, if the change is unannounced, then Dusty batted for Bill and Charlie is up next.

Be proactive in these situations and you will have less problems to resolve.