Pinch Hitter/ Batting Out of Order

[mikebran]

I love it when such a short query can generate so much good discussion. It is a very good question. And thanks for the announced v unnounced. I would not have thought of that, but it is valid and affects rulings.

Let me play with this:

Lineup

Al
Bill
Charlie

Al batting but Charlie is on deck.

Al doubles.

Manager sees Charlie coming to the plate and decides to pinch-hit for him with Dusty.

Dusty doubles in the run. Before next pitch defensive team manager notifies the umpire of the batting out of order.

Lets break at the Manager Sees portion. Two scenarios now.

1. He simply calls Charlie back and says, "Dusty go hit". Dusty goes to bat and NOTHING is said about it. Absolutely unnounced.

2. He calls time and goes to PU to announce his change. He says Dusty is hitting for Charlie. PU pulls lineup card and crosses out Charlie and inserts Dusty.

In #1. If DEF appealed after Dusty double there is NO violation, yet. Dusty in game on line 2 for BILL. Charlie is DUE UP.

in #2. I wonder if PU is even going to notice. AFter all, he is simply looking at the card, line 3. Charlie and writes in Dusty. PU is not tasked with looking out at field and seeing who is on 2nd, or remembering that the guy on 2nd was the last batter. Seems it is going to happen as coach wants. Dusty gets a hit. Appeal. Bill called OUT and Dusty HITS AGAIN! (or does he?)

more #2. But what if as PU you just happen to know that Al just batted and is on 2nd and you KNOW that Bill is due up and you know this coach is messing up. But you furtively glance over at the DEF dugout door and there is Coach Rulebook looking straight at you and Coach R is a good guy overall, but he is sending telepathic messages that he knows what is going on.

Do you tell OFF Mnger, "Uh, you know, this is a problem?"

[robbie]

Originally Posted by mikebran

in #2. I wonder if PU is even going to notice. AFter all, he is simply looking at the card, line 3. Charlie and writes in Dusty. PU is not tasked with looking out at field and seeing who is on 2nd, or remembering that the guy on 2nd was the last batter. Seems it is going to happen as coach wants. Dusty gets a hit. Appeal. Bill called OUT and Dusty HITS AGAIN! (or does he?)


more #2. But what if as PU you just happen to know that Al just batted and is on 2nd and you KNOW that Bill is due up and you know this coach is messing up. But you furtively glance over at the DEF dugout door and there is Coach Rulebook looking straight at you and Coach R is a good guy overall, but he is sending telepathic messages that he knows what is going on.

Do you tell OFF Mnger, "Uh, you know, this is a problem?"

#2:
Yes, he does.

more #2:

Easy solution:

PU says: "So when C comes up to bat, you want to sub D for C? Correct?"

OC will likey smell something wrong at that point.

If not, simply repeat: "OK, so I will have D for C when C comes to bat."

If still no light bulb by the OC - well, so be it.................

[jicecone]

I think your over-thinking this way too much.

If Dusty, Peter, Sarah, Mikey, Franky, Harry or anyone else (except Charlie), that is not in the game come in and bat in Bill's spot unannounced, they are then the legit batter and substitute (pinch hitter) for Bill. Period.

If you let the second scenario happen, where he substitutes Dusty for Charlie, when Bill is up, then you deserve all the crap that going to take place. Take control of your game and this won't happen. There is no need to discuss what if's after that because it is not going to happen in my game , especially with a lineup card.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by jicecone

There is no need to discuss what if's after that because it is not going to happen in my game , especially with a lineup card.

First batter of the inning. Coach tells you, "Dusty for Charlie." You're going to notice that Baker should have been the correct batter? If so, you pay way more attention to the batting orders and.or write more stuff on the line-up card than I do.

[jicecone]

Bob, I don't need to spend that much time noticing the number on the jersey, compared to the number on the card. With out writing anything.

Granted, summer ball may be a little different but keeping track of the number is easier. Regardless though, the point was, taking time to make sure the lineup is correct can save you problems. Does that mean something can't go wrong? I wish that was true.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by jicecone

Bob, I don't need to spend that much time noticing the number on the jersey, compared to the number on the card. With out writing anything.

Granted, summer ball may be a little different but keeping track of the number is easier. Regardless though, the point was, taking time to make sure the lineup is correct can save you problems. Does that mean something can't go wrong? I wish that was true.

The number on the player coming to the plate (Charlie) is the spot in which you write Dusty's name / number. There's nothing for you to notice is wrong, yet -- summer, spring or fall.

That's the whole point -- sometimes the coaches / players make a mistake that you can't catch.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

The number on the player coming to the plate (Charlie) is the spot in which you write Dusty's name / number. There's nothing for you to notice is wrong, yet -- summer, spring or fall.

That's the whole point -- sometimes the coaches / players make a mistake that you can't catch.

Well if he is the first batter to the plate I think I would notice but I agree sometimes (it), happens. One thing for sure, there have been early spring and late fall games I have officiated up north which clearly confused me with winter.