Umpire overrules judgment call

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I originally posted this on the "other forum," but I decided to give you guys a shot to sink your teeth into this:

I have finally quit seething over this enough to talk about it here:

F1: No, really he wants to help.

Steve IMO, the aforementioned statement by F1 IF TRUE is a bigger issue.

Did your partner give F1 "some expression" , etc. indicating that you got the call wrong and is waiting for you to ask for help.

If INDEED the PU gave some indication to F1 that you blew the call and he was ready for you to ask for help, then IMO that's a far bigger problem then simply over-turning your call which is wrong all by it's lonesome.

FWIW I am getting sick and tired of this "get the call right at all cost" mentality because the FACT is we will NOT get every call right. It's part of life. Also, whose to say that your partner got the call right. Suppose you ruled safe because in your judgement, F5 pushed the runner off the base and the PU didn't see that part of the play etc. There could be a zillion reasons why you ruled the runner safe. The bottom line IT'S YOUR CALL PERIOD.

NO umpire has the right to over-turn a judgement call without you FIRST requesting assistance otherwise the game will become CHAOS.

I realize it's the "olden days" but IMO Carl's Fab V (back in the day) when a call can be changed should be the motto but unfortunately it is not.

FWIW here's Carl's list

The FAB 5 (When calls may be legally changed)

1. Half swing called a ball changed to strike. (OBR 9.02c CMTs 1, 2, 3)

2. Two umpires make opposite calls on the same play. (common sense: only one can be accepted)

3. An umpire misapplies a rule. (9.02b/c)

4. Home run changed to double, vice versa; fair to foul, vice versa on balls hit out of the park. (professional practice)

5. "Out" called on a tag play, but the ball falls free, and another umpire observes it. (JEA 9:15-16)

The Terrible Three (Three times a call CANNOT be legally changed after it's made)

1. Swipe tag
2. Force play (or play on BR at first)
3. Fielder on/off the bag

ANY call can be corrected:

Carl: "He's out!" Then, immediately: "No, no, no. Safe! The runner is safe!!" That's bad timing -- but it's legal.

I would also scratch this guy from future assignments

Pete Booth

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Did your partner give F1 "some expression" , etc. indicating that you got the call wrong and is waiting for you to ask for help.

If INDEED the PU gave some indication to F1 that you blew the call and he was ready for you to ask for help, then IMO that's a far bigger problem then simply over-turning your call which is wrong all by it's lonesome.

Exactly, I think that while I was talking to F5, F1 was watching my "partner" come walking out toward the discussion, when my "partner" should have been tending his little garden by home plate waiting for an invitation. This IS the part of it that infuriates me more than just saying, "well we're going to get the call right." The very first thing I told him when he got to my position uninvited was that I wasn't asking for his help. I couldn't have been clearer.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Exactly, I think that while I was talking to F5, F1 was watching my "partner" come walking out toward the discussion, when my "partner" should have been tending his little garden by home plate waiting for an invitation. This IS the part of it that infuriates me more than just saying, "well we're going to get the call right." The very first thing I told him when he got to my position uninvited was that I wasn't asking for his help. I couldn't have been clearer.

Might have been fun, after he told the runner he was out, to say: "No, you're safe, stay right there!"

You know, just to see what would happen.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Might have been fun, after he told the runner he was out, to say: "No, you're safe, stay right there!"

You know, just to see what would happen.

My "partner" (for lack of a better word, a word which I can't say on this forum ) has been in this adult association for a long time, I just finished my 6th week. I wanted to do this, but I think I would have looked like the bad guy if I hadn't just bit the bullet on this one. I won't have to worry about it happening again with this guy, because I won't be working with him in the future.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

My "partner" (for lack of a better word, a word which I can't say on this forum ) has been in this adult association for a long time, I just finished my 6th week. I wanted to do this, but I think I would have looked like the bad guy if I hadn't just bit the bullet on this one. I won't have to worry about it happening again with this guy, because I won't be working with him in the future.

Steve....I would be willing to bet that after you've been involved with this association longer you'll findout (without ever asking another member directly) that this "partner" has pulled this kind of crab with other umpires that he has worked with.

[celebur]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

NO umpire has the right to over-turn a judgement call without you FIRST requesting assistance otherwise the game will become CHAOS.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your meaning. In my association, even if I request assistance, my partner still has no right to overturn my judgement call. He only has the right to privately share what he saw, and I then have a decision to make--either stick with my call or change it.

[SethPDX]

Originally Posted by celebur

In my association, even if I request assistance, my partner still has no right to overturn my judgement call. He only has the right to privately share what he saw, and I then have a decision to make--either stick with my call or change it.

That's exactly what we are saying. Steve's partner was totally out of line in changing the call. If Steve wanted to change it after talking to his partner (and his partner should wait to be asked for advice), he would have done it himself.

[SanDiegoSteve]

I finally was able to get ahold of my assignor, who agrees with us 100%, and that he was way out of line and has no business even having an opinion without being asked for help. He is planning to umpire with me this weekend just to make sure that it won't happen a second time!

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Considering that you were looking for any reason....most of us will just ignore your post.

I couldn't even see it till you quoted it.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I couldn't even see it till you quoted it.

Sorry.

I don't like the ignore lists, cause you know the person posted. I'd rather the board software eliminated any trace -- then I'd probably use them more.

[GA Umpire]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Sorry.

I don't like the ignore lists, cause you know the person posted. I'd rather the board software eliminated any trace -- then I'd probably use them more.

The problem with ignoring is if someone posts something you know to be wrong. Then, if you don't know about it, you can't correct it. As much as some would like to ignore others, I think it leads to other problems. And, is an indirect way of letting myths perpetuate.

[RPatrino]

Steve, I agree you were justified in being ticked off!! The only time as the PU I will interject myself on a partner's safe/out judgement call is if they call a runner out and they can't see the ball is on the ground.

I don't think I would have even hanging around with this dufus in the parking lot, just jump in the jaloppie and boogie.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

The only time as the PU I will interject myself on a partner's safe/out judgement call is if they call a runner out and they can't see the ball is on the ground.

What's so special about that?

What's the difference between that and an out call when the runner beat it by three steps?

If your partner blows one, and needs help, he can come to you.

[JJ]

I'm with Greymule on this one. Your partner had no business joining this fray - it was your judgement call to make or miss, and unless you ask for help he shouldn't be offering it.
We've both been around long enough to know that we should always "consider the source". If he thinks he can do it all, stay out of his way and let him - I'd never work with him again. If he does this to enough partners he'll finish out his storied career working alone, which is what he seems to want to do anyway.
His intentions might have been good enough - he may in fact have seen the hand off the bag - but unless you ask him for help he should have kept it to himself.
The end result was just what could have been predicted - you BOTH ended up looking bad. Hopefully he learned from what he did. I know you did. Hang in there -

JJ

[Rich]

I'm going to be checking out for a while. Too much stuff deleted for my liking around here. Too much trying to be nice to everyone, even the idiots who post here only to be idiots.

Bye.