Can your partner change a judgment call?

[WestMichBlue]

An accepted part of good umpiring is to discuss a difficult call with your partner when requested by a coach or player. And if your partner, seeing the play from a different angle, says “yes, I saw her pulled foot” or “yes, I saw the ball on the ground under the sliding runner,” then you should have no problem changing your call.

But what if the difference between you and your partner is more of a judgment, or timing call? Let’s say you are in “C”, hot grounder to F6 who throws (low) to F3 in plenty of time to get B-R. However, F3 bobbles the ball and it is on the ground. He puts his glove over the ball and picks it up. “SAFE” you emphatically signal. Pointing down, you say “ball’s on the ground.”

Of course the defensive coach disagrees with you. “How could you possibly make that Blankity Blank call” he demands? “Simple, coach. Your F3 did not have the ball when the runner’s foot hit the base.” Coach and players aren’t buying it; ask that you confer with your partner. Now what?

One - do you say “No, it’s a judgment call; I made it and it stands!”
Two – you talk to partner and he says “yes, the ball was bobbled, yes it was on the ground; yes he put his glove on it.” And? “IMO, he definitely picked it up (thus demonstrating control) before the runner hit the base.

Forgetting the fact that you probably had a better angle to see the foot touch the base than the PU, would you change your call if your partner’s judgment was different than yours?

WMB

[Steve M]

Short answer - no. And I don't think I'm likely to go to my partner just because a coach doesn't like a judgement call.

[whiskers_ump]

I agree with Steve. It is still your call even after confering with
your partner. If you felt you had all the pieces and were sure of your
call, stick with it.

[mach3]

For me the same.

I would nor go to my partner if I was sure That I got every piece of information that I needed to make the call.

If however I wasn't sure, I would ask my partner before I make the call! "Did you see her having control in time?" That will give me the last part I did not see. Than I make the call.

Raoul

[Skahtboi]

I agree with the other posters. For me to even consider going to my partner, a coach has to ask me the correct question. Just "not liking" my call is not a reason for me to confer with my partner. Often, even when a coach asks the right question, for example in this case: "Blue, I think she had control of the ball before the runner hit the bag. Could you check with your partner?" More than likely it will get an answer of "Coach, in my judgement, the runner was there before your player had control of the ball." That pretty much ends the conversation, as most coaches know that you cannot argue a judgement call.

[Andy]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
But what if the difference between you and your partner is more of a judgment, or timing call? Let’s say you are in “C”, hot grounder to F6 who throws (low) to F3 in plenty of time to get B-R. However, F3 bobbles the ball and it is on the ground. He puts his glove over the ball and picks it up. “SAFE” you emphatically signal. Pointing down, you say “ball’s on the ground.”

Of course the defensive coach disagrees with you. “How could you possibly make that Blankity Blank call” he demands? “Simple, coach. Your F3 did not have the ball when the runner’s foot hit the base.” Coach and players aren’t buying it; ask that you confer with your partner. Now what?

I tell the coach that I saw the ball on the ground when the runner hit the bag. If the coach just wants to argue that, I am not going to check with my partner. I made the call, it stands.

If the coach states that he saw something that I did not because I was blocked by a runner or fielder, then I would honor his request to get help.

I also agree 100% with Raoul's answer about going for help before you make the call, if necessary.

[CecilOne]

As WMB said: "An accepted part of good umpiring is to discuss a difficult call with your partner when requested by a coach or player".
I will almost always discuss the call with my partner if a coach or player asks. Notice I said "asks" and I will say what I saw first. We need to improve relationships and that is one way to do it. I don't think any of you are egomaniacs, but not asking can make us appear to be.

Of course, if they say something about the "Blankity Blank call", someone else will have to ask.

Now, from a strategy sense, if you think you might need help, that's the same as not guessing a call and should never be an out call.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Never hesitate to go to your partner if it is possible you missed a pulled foot, dropped ball, etc. However, on a judgment call where the only question is whether I was right or wrong, the only person going anywhere is the coach to the bench. Now, if s/he doesn't like that, I have no problem allowing THEM to go to my partner.......






......on the way to the parking lot!

[pollywolly60]

What about a check swing call? Up until this past year ( my third year umping) I thought the PU always honored a request by catcher to get help on a "check swing" call. However, this past year while working the plate I had a 100% certain (IMO) check swing, so I called a ball. BU was in slot between second and third. Catcher asked me to check with BU for help. I did so out of courtesy, sure my call would be upheld. Lo and behold, my BU ruled it a strike! I felt certain that was the wrong call and that I had a better angle on it, but had to go with that call. So now I'm considering only going for help if I have doubt. Is that reasonable?

[mcrowder]

I disagree that it's "good form" to go discuss calls with your partner when a coach disagrees with a call - even if he asks nicely. It is "good form" to go discuss a call with your partner ON YOUR OWN if you feel you don't have all the information. But to do so at the behest of a coach only leads to problems.

The one exception to this would be if the coach says something that makes me realize I could possibly have not seen everything I needed to see. Example:

Seemingly normal ground ball, but the throw to 1B is high. 1B's foot is on the bag, the ball hits the 1B's glove, pops straight up and comes back down into the glove, beating the runner. Watching the play, I see the ball reacquired by 1B before the baserunner passes 1B. Coach then tells me the 1B shuffled her feet while catching the ball and was not actually on the bag when she caught it.

If I'd actually seen the feet the first time, I simply tell the coach that. But - if in my focus on the ball and the timing, I realize I neglected to recheck that the foot was on the bag - THEN I'll go check with my partner.

[mcrowder]

Regarding the check-swing question. I would only NOT ask for partner's opinion if A) I was absolutely sure of the call and/or B) I knew partner was not in position to see it better than me. This may be the one major exception to my long post above, in that the check swing call is an exceedingly difficult call to make from behind the plate when your main focus is the ball and the zone.

One note - on a RHB, seeing a check swing from the 2B/3B slot is problematical, but will usually result more often in false "No-Swing" calls. If BU there saw a swing - it was probably a swing.

An example of B above - admitting that this doesn't happen often. You might decline to ask BU for help on that call if they are moving or looking partially away due to an attempted steal. Also - we have one umpire in my local association who is a board member. He's NOT a solid umpire, and only works when we're shorthanded. However, he REFUSES (despite several coaching attempts) to step on the field before the play starts. Meaning he's either behind 1B or behind 3B (like a MLB 5th umpire might be). I'll NEVER ask for his help on an off-side call (LHB if he's at 1B, RHB if he's at 3B) because A) he's got bad position, and B) he really doesn't pay that much attention until the ball is hit.

[ChampaignBlue]

No, your partner can not over rule your call, only give you more info so you can change the call if warrented.

I only go to my partner automatically if I know the s/he is following the play. I've had partners come to me, PU, and ask about a pulled foot at 1st while I have runners going into 3rd and home. That makes you both look bad because he is announcing that he's not sure and you're in no position to help.

I get very few appeals because I announce why I made the call when I make the call if it's not routine. Safe! Pulled foot! or Out! She got control! At that point any appeal is useless because I've already ruled on what they want to appeal.

When I do get appeals, I have no problem going to my partner, while we strive for perfection (and we usually achieve it) we are human and may not see everything but the coach has to be specific, not "she was safe".

[Skahtboi]

At all schools I have attended where the topic of check swings comes up, they have always told us to honor the appeal. I agree with this philosophy, and so I always do. It is then the job of your partner to ascertain what he or she saw. If they were not in position, or have nothing to add to it, then they will uphold the call of ball. If they have something to add, then they will signal strike. Apparently, in the case that pollywolly stated, the partner must have felt he saw something that justified an attempt at the ball.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by mcrowder
I disagree that it's "good form" to go discuss calls with your partner when a coach disagrees with a call - even if he asks nicely. It is "good form" to go discuss a call with your partner ON YOUR OWN if you feel you don't have all the information. But to do so at the behest of a coach only leads to problems.

The one exception to this would be if the coach says something that makes me realize I could possibly have not seen everything I needed to see.

I pretty much believe that the folks here would only go if a coach asks you to go for a specific reason.

I do not believe in going to your partner for help on your own because you have doubts. You make the call on what you saw, your brain analyzes that info and tells your arms and mouth the manner in which they are to react(of course, you are praying the entire time your brain doesn't freeze up like some of my old computers). If it's a banger and you were not blocked out, a shrug and "I'm not sure" just isn't going to cut it. If you are blocked out, you give up the call and hope your partner was in a position to see the play. Of course, the idea is to not allow yourself to get blocked out, but softball players do some goofy things sometimes.

You have to remember that it is possible there are other runners and plays going on at the same time and your partner isn't always going to be there to back you up.

If the umpire has a hard time being decisive, s/he needs to find something else to do.

[TexBlue]

Well, it seems pretty unanimous so far. I would only go to my partner if the coach gave me some information I didn't have, like a pulled foot, dropped ball .... If it's just a judgement call, like the others, I'm probably going to talk to the coach, explain what I saw and stick with the call. There's no need in going to a partner for help unless the coach says something happened that you were unaware of. Some talk was given to whether your partner was in position or not to help you. I always make the call, finish up with the proper mechanics and immediately look at my partner and give the number of outs to him. This way I know if he's watching and can help or if he's taking care of other runners.

Rick