Umpire overrules judgment call

[SanDiegoSteve]

I originally posted this on the "other forum," but I decided to give you guys a shot to sink your teeth into this:

I have finally quit seething over this enough to talk about it here:

Saturday, I worked 2 adult games with a former (long time ago) minor league umpire, who is also a former (not long ago) college umpire.

I had the plate the first game and did my usual awesome job.

In the second game, I'm on the bases, I'm in C with R3, and F2 snapped a throw to 3rd to pick off R3. After a head-first slide in which R3 was clearly safe (fairly close play), there was a cloud of dust and R3 possibly lost contact with 3rd base briefly and MAY have been tagged, but I ruled him safe on the play.

Immediately, the defensive players were trying to pressure me into asking my partner, who is at home plate, for help on the play. Here is how it went from there (or words to this effect):

F5: Can you get help?

Me: No, that's my call. He's safe.

F1: We're just asking you to check with your partner. He had a good angle.

Me: Absolutely not. That's my call.

F1: No, really he wants to help.

Me: No, I'm not asking for his help.

(At this time my partner is walking out to where I'm standing pointing covertly at his chest as to tell me he has a differing opinion.)

Me to partner privately: I am not coming to you for help on this play.

Partner: I understand, but I saw him come off the base and get tagged and we just want to get the call right.

Me: But that's my call, and I'm willing to live with it if I blew the call. I'm not asking for you to take the call.

Partner: Well, I'm going to make the out call and I'll take any crap they give about it.

(At this time, partner signals "Out" and calls out R3. Offensive team comes unglued. They start ragging from the dugout. They wouldn't shut up about it, and somebody on the bench said, "Wow, that's horrible umpiring, BOTH of you." I told them to shut it down and that we won't hear any more of it. To which calls of "rabbit ears" were heard (I've never understood that one when they are SCREAMING at the top of their lungs, not whispering).

So I'm really the one taking crap for it, even though he said he would take all the crap, even though his strike zone sucked all day and they were all over him for that, plus his giving the count was so lazy and infrequent that players were complaining about it (gave 3-2 with a single closed fist and no vocal). And I hadn't missed a thing all day up until this point.

I was boiling hot over it for several innings, and when the game was over, at the car I told him that I didn't subscribe to the "get it right at all costs" philosophy on a safe/out call. I told him I didn't believe in taking someone's call without being asked. He told me that for the last 5 or 6 years they have been doing this at the college level, and that he would overrule his partner anytime he saw something different than his partner. I told him you do not do this on a judgment call on the bases, and that it undermines your partner. I also told him that this isn't college ball and we don't play under NCAA rules, we play by pro rules, and that the rule says no umpire shall seek to reverse another umpire's decision unless asked by the umpire that made the call.

I then finished changing, we said goodbye less than cordially, and both drove away.

What do you guys think about this? I think I got screwed, and I'm requesting to not work with this guy ever again. I worked with him when he was in the Texas League (briefly, he was fired and never worked pro ball again) in the 1980s when he was home on a break, and he thought he was hot sh!t back then too. But now he's not "all that" anymore and can barely get around the field. I outperform this guy six ways to Sunday, and I don't think it's right to undermine your partner by poaching his calls.

And I hope he's reading this, because boy, am I ever pissed!

[bob jenkins]

Rush Limbaugh and Al Franken agree -- your partner shouldn't have overruled you.

Whether you should request not to work with him again and how that's handled in your association is a local thing that they know nothing about, but are willing to spend hours explaining it.

[BuggBob]

Hell ya get pissed, throw things around, kick your dog, cuss and scream...and then get over it. Things happen in every game, sometimes they make us mad sometimes not. I lost a good friend because I got mad at a call we made on the field, in the end it was not worth the agravation and lost friendship.

that my 2cents
Bugg

[GA Umpire]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Rush Limbaugh and Al Franken agree

Time to close the thread.

[jicecone]

Good reason to be upset. Sometimes your stuck in the mud with a partner and just have to swallow it and let him know how you felt afterwards. I believe in getting it right also but, this was your call all the way, period.

You may think you looked bad but, if you have officiated this league long enough and worked hard, I am sure the players know your reputation. You handled it professionally and that is about all you can do. Some guys work just for the money and can care less about the job they do. Sometimes you get stuck working with them. If it happens again, make sure you lay down the law in your pregame. If that doesn't work, put your hand in your pocket, feel the green and smile, knowing you did your best.

[ozzy6900]

This is what comes of the "Get it right at all costs" mentality. It makes umpires think that they can run willey-nilly all over each other and that just sucks.

Your partner was an a$$ for coming to your to start with. He had no business coming to you unless you called him and we both know that.

As far as the "rabbit ears" comment, I think I would have gone straight at them (the dugout) and told them "You just invited me in here, so I am telling you to knock it off --- NOW!".

And I guarantee you, if I had to dump someone over this incident, I would have pointed to my partner and said, "That one's for you, hoss!".

[greymule]

That's obviously very bad. The guy broke a cardinal rule by gratuitously overruling his partner on a judgment call. I don't see how you can work with him again unless you're both clear about how you're going to handle those situations.

We've all seen our partner miss calls (and vice versa). But there were times when I was sure I saw something right, but in discussing the play, found out that he had seen something I hadn't. If it's his call and he doesn't want help, it's final.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

F1: We're just asking you to check with your partner. He had a good angle.

Me: Absolutely not. That's my call.

F1: No, really he wants to help.

Me: No, I'm not asking for his help.

I find this disturbing. How does F1 'know' that your partner wants to help? It sounds as if your partner was clearly giving signals that he didn't agree with your call.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Considering that you were looking for any reason....most of us will just ignore your post.

I couldn't even see it till you quoted it.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I couldn't even see it till you quoted it.

Sorry.

I don't like the ignore lists, cause you know the person posted. I'd rather the board software eliminated any trace -- then I'd probably use them more.

[JJ]

I'm with Greymule on this one. Your partner had no business joining this fray - it was your judgement call to make or miss, and unless you ask for help he shouldn't be offering it.
We've both been around long enough to know that we should always "consider the source". If he thinks he can do it all, stay out of his way and let him - I'd never work with him again. If he does this to enough partners he'll finish out his storied career working alone, which is what he seems to want to do anyway.
His intentions might have been good enough - he may in fact have seen the hand off the bag - but unless you ask him for help he should have kept it to himself.
The end result was just what could have been predicted - you BOTH ended up looking bad. Hopefully he learned from what he did. I know you did. Hang in there -

JJ

[Rich]

I'm going to be checking out for a while. Too much stuff deleted for my liking around here. Too much trying to be nice to everyone, even the idiots who post here only to be idiots.

Bye.

[UES-2]

I work college ball in So Cal and here is my 2 cents:

For the most part, we want to get the call right. That said. I understand why Steve did not want to get help. He was on top of the play. His partner is 90' away. However, in 2 man, sometime our eyes play tricks with us on plays @ 3rd. The best place, IMO, to make a call @ 3rd is near the coach's box. In 2 man we do not have that luxury. If the runner was tagged off the bag, he might be off the bag on the foul side. A base umpire can sometimes get straight-lined on that "look". Oviously the plate guy had a different "look" because he approached Steve tapping his chest. That was the plate guys 1st mistake. If I am the plate guy and I have info for my partner, I will let him know by my eye contact or body language. However, I WILL NOT approach him. I might take a few steps his way, but that's it. Now it is up to Steve if he wants to get help. If Steve gets help, his partner will tell him what he has. If I was Steve I would of asked " how bad did I miss it? was it close or was he out "bigtime"? If it was close, I would probually stick with my call. If I kicked it bad. For the sake of gettin' it right, I would probually change it. IT IS MY CALL TO CHANGE! Not my partners. Now the other coach will probually get "ran" if I change the call... but that's baseball.

I had this same play happen to me a few years back. Guy slid head first into
3rd......overslid..and was tagged out off the bag foul side. I was straighlined so I had to take a couple of steps in to see the runners' hand NOT on the bag. I called him out. It was 110% the right call. Coach wanted help. I refused..he got run. This stuff happens to us all. That is why we get the $125 to make the hard decisions. In Steve's case.. probually $65 cash on the field tax free. Still in this economy.. not bad for 3 hours work...I HOPE it wasnt more that 3 hours! :-)

On a side note, one of the reasons that the plate guy might have stepped in is because if he works college ball, he might feel that he is a superior umpire and has the come in and save the day. We have all worked on fields with weaker partners and felt we might have to pick up the slack if a sh!thouse arrives. However, we need to sometimes step back and let our partners earn their money. They have to learn the hard way too. I have never seen Steve work so I have no ideas of his skills. This is just an obsevation.

[umpjong]

As both NCAA and Pro rules do not allow another umpire to "change" a call like this, I would have probably advised the runner to stay at third and told the PU to go back to his position. If PU insisted, I would remind him that the rule clearly states that he has no authority to change the call. Period. Some times you must educate the idiots in public....

[Emperor Ump]

Originally Posted by umpjong

As both NCAA and Pro rules do not allow another umpire to "change" a call like this

Exactly - This guy was wrong from the word go. SDS you have every right to be ticked.

I want to get every call right too, but as the BU I'd have a hard time selling that my PU had any good look at this play. As PU if I had something overwhelmingly different (which I cant see a PU having a good look at a throw back to third and a possible tag as the runner may/may not have come off the bag well enough to be convinced you were wrong) I'd casually give one of the I've got info signals and wait patiently. If you never came, play ball, like you said, it's your call.