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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 21, 2009, 10:53am
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To Grune's point......
"Missed calls and shaky umpiring have been an embarrassment fo Major League Baseball throughout this postseason"
What would the NFL being doing if this type of thing occured in their playoffs?
  #17 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 21, 2009, 11:34am
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Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty:
Wow!

I just read J.K.'s defense of McClelland's latest butchery. Admirable loyalty to a once-great umpire.

I can't wait to hear the others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KJUmp View Post
...that's the sad part right there.
It is indeed sad that some will ignore the reality of it all and make excuses for such shoddy and unprofessional work for no reason other than misplaced loyalty to a fellow umpire.

On that we can agree.
  #18 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 21, 2009, 11:37am
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Since U3 said he thought runner was on base ( as opposed at a snap judgement on the runner touching and being tagged almost at the same time) why after Scioscia came out didn't he simply ask PU if he had an out?
Not the best grammer, but point is there....

Last edited by robbie; Wed Oct 21, 2009 at 09:22pm.
  #19 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 21, 2009, 12:16pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robbie View Post
why after Scioscia came out didn't he simply ask PU if he had an out?
New at this aren't you?

The PU would have told him to talk to U3 because it was U3's call.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 21, 2009, 12:28pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KJUmp View Post
To Grune's point......
"Missed calls and shaky umpiring have been an embarrassment fo Major League Baseball throughout this postseason"
What would the NFL being doing if this type of thing occured in their playoffs?
Grade the officials on every down of the game like always. Some NFL officials don't get a single foul/no-foul call wrong during the entire 17 game season. That is about 2329 consecutive downs without making a mistake (about 137 per game). What do you want the NFL to do because a guy got one wrong during the playoffs?
  #21 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 21, 2009, 12:55pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkumpire View Post
First off, I'm not sold on all these video cameras Fox is using.

Second, Tim needed a couple more steps to get into a great position to see the tag. Was he wrong? Maybe, but see the post above.

Third, on the play at 3B, IMO two bad things happened.
A. he got straightlined by Posada when he steeped off 3B. There was little chance he could see the 2nd tag from where he was. Should he have moved further? Maybe, but at least he had the guts to call what he saw and assumed something happened that he didn't see.
B. The problem with his call on the whole play may be something all of us can learn from. Since I am not God, I cannot go into Tim's mind to find out what he was thinking. But I would almost be willing to bet that he assumed a certain normal call he has called hundreds of time was going on. Instead, there was a call that happens, what, once in a career?

The teaching point is that you can never assume what will happen at a play, you have to try and keep your mind focused on what is going on in front of your eyes.

I know a lot of us veterans will at times assume something like this: We think this pitch will be off the plate, so we mentally call the pitch a ball. But, then the pitch hits the corner, but we assumed it was a ball, so we ball it anyway.

How many times will anyone see that call in their career on the MLB level? Once, maybe. It was a weird play, and I'll bet you dollars to donuts he either didn't see Posada get tagged, or he made a mental mistake in assuming only R2 would vacate 3B when R3 returned.

Great play by the F2, he was on the ball, and U3 missed it.

BTW, the conversation with Sicosia and Jerry Lane was enlightening too, but I wish Fox had not broadcast it. That kind of inside baseball needs to be left on the field, and Lane was dead on right to let the Anaheim F2 he needed to give a look.

The later commentary by McCarver about it was nuts, some of the most stupid stuff I ever heard him say. "Yeah, F2 is thinking about what the HP umpire said, so he ends up misplaying a ball for a passed ball. Right.

Comments?
McClelland's explanation was that he thought Cano was on the bag when tagged. I'm wondering if that would've mattered.

Posado was the lead runner. When Posado returned to 3rd, that bag became HIS bag - not Cano's. The Angel's catcher, Napoli, elected to tag Cano first. Cano was clearly off the bag -but- if he had been on the bag, didn't the bag still belong to Posada - even though Posada had overrun the bag?

Yes, I realize that there were never two runners on the base at the same time. But the issue is one of ownership. WHO does the bag belong to? Posado had returned to 3rd and overran it. Posado needed to return to that base to be safe.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that when Cano was tagged he was on the base and, for that reason, McClelland had called him safe. Posado is off the bag on the leftfield side of 3rd, after overrunning it. Where can Posado go to be safe? We know he can't run to 2nd. Can he go back to 3rd? Cano has already been declared SAFE at 3rd. Can he go home? No! Because he failed to touch 3rd.

Can Cano be safe at 3rd when tagged ... and if Posado returns to 3rd ... can Cano be re-tagged and be declared out?

David Emerling
Memphis, TN
  #22 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 21, 2009, 01:16pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Emerling View Post

Can Cano be safe at 3rd when tagged ... and if Posado [sic] returns to 3rd ... can Cano be re-tagged and be declared out?
Yes, and yes. He would first be safe, while Posada was still off the base, then after Posada steps on the base, Cano could be re-tagged and be called out.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 21, 2009, 01:51pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve View Post
Yes, and yes. He would first be safe, while Posada was still off the base, then after Posada steps on the base, Cano could be re-tagged and be called out.
I get confused sometimes by all the "McClelland is one of the best umpires in MLB." Ive watched him work a lot, and I will admit his ball/strike consistency is very good but I have also watched and noticed him blowing/missing a good number of calls. In MLB does "the best" simply boil down to ball and strike Questec ratings?
  #24 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 21, 2009, 02:14pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robbie View Post
why after Sosa came out didn't he simply ask PU if he had an out?
I didn't realize that Sammy was in attendance, or that he had came out!
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 21, 2009, 03:11pm
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There should be two openings in MLB next year, Cuzzi and Mcclelland. They don't have to be fired, just put back in AAA until they can handle umpiring in the bigs. If they don't like that, retire and let other guys in.

On second thought, just fire them. Professionals should not make those gross mistakes. I'm tired of the ol' "everybody makes mistakes" reasoning. If my doctor makes a mistake, he's not getting off the hook because some pre-med student made the same mistake. Let's try to have the best officiating the best. I am getting tired of seeing gross mistakes at this level.
  #26 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 21, 2009, 04:31pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LDUB View Post
Grade the officials on every down of the game like always. Some NFL officials don't get a single foul/no-foul call wrong during the entire 17 game season. That is about 2329 consecutive downs without making a mistake (about 137 per game). What do you want the NFL to do because a guy got one wrong during the playoffs?
You're taking my reply the wrong way...the point I was trying to make is the same one you made....the NFL reviews plays an grades officials on every call. If you don't grade out high...you don't work the playoffs.
.I was not being critical of the NFL or their system for rating, evaluating, and advancing officials for post season assignments.
  #27 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 21, 2009, 05:01pm
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I can live with Cuzzi's miss, because it wasn't for lack of effort.
  #28 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 21, 2009, 05:09pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KJUmp View Post
You're taking my reply the wrong way...the point I was trying to make is the same one you made....the NFL reviews plays an grades officials on every call. If you don't grade out high...you don't work the playoffs.
.I was not being critical of the NFL or their system for rating, evaluating, and advancing officials for post season assignments.
For the record, the NFL officials are downgraded for plays that no one knows are a mistake. They get dinged for movement when they are involved and not involved in plays. NFL officials have to move on every play and during dead ball periods. I would not even think it would be fair to even compare the NFL to MLB when MLB might not even have a touch situation or movement during a great deal of the game. I have said this before; it is a lot harder to officiate a football game than it is a baseball game any day. And the NFL turns over their staff often and change people every year. Can MLB say the same thing?

McClellon had one shot at this play and missed it big time. And he did not have to move much to see the play and adjust to get an angle. We have all missed plays. The lesson in this is to never assume anything. You have to get in position to see something. And if guys knew at the MLB level that they will not have a job in a year for these kinds of calls or at the very least sit home during the playoffs, they might do a better job on the routine play like this.

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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 21, 2009, 08:50pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkumpire View Post
Kevin,

Maybe it is another reason why the the plate umpire should have the tag at 3B to begin with.

JK, in this situation the U3 has NOTHING more to do than to get sufficient angle to line up the runner and the catch. If you can't get that simple responsibility done, maybe you should be doing something else.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 21, 2009, 09:13pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Ives View Post
New at this aren't you?

The PU would have told him to talk to U3 because it was U3's call.
Ummm - No, I'm not.

I suppose I sould cave been clearer. "Him" refers to U3, not to Scioscia. McClelland could have very easily gone to PU ( or crew in general) to ask if he missed something. Surely one of then would have said obvious tag while off the base. McClelland gives the hammer. Play over, Move on.

Last edited by robbie; Wed Oct 21, 2009 at 09:21pm.
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