A better way to handle?

[jicecone]

Freix,

I apologize, mabey I should have been clearer. I used the wrong word "declare". My partner indicated by pointing fair because he made the assumption that the ball passed over the bag after he last saw it. Yes, I agree at that point it is my call, but we were giving conflicting information and it needed clarification to get right. I apologize if our mechanics were not perfect that day, but Sh$$ happens.

"Better to correct a call and get it right than look like and be a horse's a$$ by standing by an obviously wrong decision."

This is exactly the point I was making.

Thanks for the Help.

[Gold_Spark]

My mistake Bfair. I'll bite your logic and apologize for my general advice. However, I don't totally agree with you and I believe you picked my statement apart in the wrong way.

"First of all . . . if an umpire makes a call. He should never ask for help afterwards. If he was able to see the play good enough and make a call under his own judgement, that is the end of the story."

The above statement is suppose to indicate that the umpire is confident in his call and furthermore, should have no reason to ask for help.

Here's where our discussions differ . . . I say:

" . . . the only reason an umpire asks for help after he makes a call is because he is feeling pressure from the coach."

You say:

"There are factors beyond "feeling pressure from the coach" why a call should be reversed. How about---you blew it, and you know it as well as everyone else in the ballpark.I will agree, however, that if you saw the play and are certain of the call, you should not seek your partner's help merely to appease a complaining coach."

Now I say that if your partner sees something that you didn't . . . then he should call timeout . . . come to you . . . ask you if you saw the same thing and if you didn't . . . from there you can make the decision of whether to reverse a call or not. But that's not you asking for help. How are you supposed to know if you missed something? That's ridiculous logic there.

Furthermore, if you blow a call and you know it and everyone else in the ballpark knows it. Change it right there. Reverse the call yourself. No problem.

Our misunderstanding arises from this statements . . .

"To all umpires. If you make a call. Stand firm with your ruling. If you're out of position to make a call . . . ask for help. Those are your options."

And I understand your side of the story. But this statement coincides with the discussion. It should be taken . . . IN CONTEXT. ------> Pressure from coaches

Therefore . . . I agree 100% with "those who make the rules". And that's why I "read them a little closer" everyday.

"If you have legitimate reason to believe you have blown a call, and you are uncertain of your original call (but you were forced to make that decision due to the play circumstances), getting additional information from a partner may help you get the call correct if the play situation allows for that. Better to correct a call and get it right than look like and be a horse's a$$ by standing by an obviously wrong decision."

If you have legitimate reason to believe you have blown a call . . . what made you make the call in the first place? You call what you see. Bottom line . . . legitimate reason? What? Mental Instant Replay? I don't get it.

I've made calls that I've thought were close. I called them to the best of my ability and was confident that I made the right call.

So are you saying that just because the play was close . . . I should seek help? Seems kinda too dependent to me and if I were coaching, I wouldn't be too confident in the umpire calling the game. (If he had to ask for help on any . . . legitimately close calls)

Give me an example or something Bfair. SHOW me an instance in which your opinion is relevant. But don't just try to throw my "brief experience" back into my face and make me look like an a$$.

[Bfair]

Gold Spark, let's start at the point that we both definitely agree. Don't go to your partner for the mere purpose of appeasing a coach. If you are certain of your call as you saw it, then stick with it---and know how to handle the complaining coach. Don't use your partner as a scapegoat from your situation.

You say:

First of all . . . if an umpire makes a call. He should never ask for help afterwards. If he was able to see the play good enough and make a call under his own judgement, that is the end of the story.

Since calls are basically designated to specific umpires, we are sometimes forced to make calls where we don't have all the information we'd like, but yet we must make a call. We don't always have the luxury of assurance that our partner has that additional information to clear our doubt. This is needing additional information, not asking for his opinion of the "timing" of the play. The decision on the "timing" of the call remains yours---right or wrong. Don't seek a 2nd opininon merely because it' a close call; do so only when you know you have doubt due to being blocked out on angle and you have good reason to believe you've blown the call. Also consider the angle your partner has. If a throw from F6 potentially pulls F3 off 1B down the rightfield line, does PU have the best angle, or do you? Obviously, you as BU have the best angle on that call, so why ask PU? There's no reason to seek help even if your partner thought differently----YOU had the best angle to make the decision, and YOU saw and called the play.

Prime example is R2 only with BU in C position and a ground ball to F6.
This situation is often used to show the flaw inherent in the 2-man system. In amateur play, that initial play could go to 3B, 2B (diving back), or 1B on the BR. That initial call remains the responsibility of BU. The best he can do is move to the back of the mound and react to the play. He cannot overcommit anywhere until F6 makes a play. By the time it's decided that the play will go to 1B, he cannot gain adequate ground to be in good position for a pulled foot or swipe tag.

Hopefully, PU will still be available for aid if needed, but BU doesn't always know for sure---especially if working with an unfamiliar partner. Some PU's break for 3B for a play that never happens---abandoning that good angle on the foot or swipe tag. (As PU I'm always watching 1B line in case my partner needs help). If you are confident PU is watching and ready to help, you can and should gain that help before making the initial call. It's great crew coordination (that looks great) when done properly.

If you don't have that confidence in your partner, you must make the call. If I'm in doubt regarding a pulled foot or swipe tag, I'll always call this runner safe. I make the defense prove the out to me. Should a call be reversed later, it will make it an out. Play proceeds as if the runner is safe. A coach's or crowd's reaction can, at times, tell you that there was doubt elsewhere about the successful tagging of the base or player. After the play is over, you can privately converse with your partner and change the call if needed---but only if he's certain the base or player was tagged. Still, if you are certain of your original call, there is no need discuss it with your partner. Tell the coach it's your call, and you saw the entire play---the call stands.

While some say it's illegal to change this call, I say hogwash. There is proof of changing calls when additional information is available, and it's supported by rulebooks and/or casebooks under all major sets of rules. More dignity in lost in sticking with an obviously poor call vs. gaining help and getting the call right---even if it means changing a call. The problem is caused not by lack of the official's capability or hustle, but by problems inherent in a 2-man system and from working with unfamiliar partners frequently. We are not professional umpires; we don't have 4 man crews; and we don't work daily with the same partners. We should take necessary steps to get the call correct when there is doubt in our minds that we may have obviously blown a call. When done properly, that action is respected rather than ridiculed.


Just my opinion,

Freix

[BJ Moose]

AAARRRRRGHHHHHH!!!!

(Hey Stevey!)

[Gold_Spark]

With most of what you said. Bottom line with me is . . . if I feel I'm out of position or don't have enough "information" to make a call . . . I'll ALWAYS ask my partner if he saw the play. If he can't answer . . . than I'll use my best judgement and make the call.

Maybe you are right. Actually . . . you are right. You were discussing the possibility of incorrect mechanics and I was assuming that the mechanics were correct.

I agree with you. The correct call is the call you ALWAYS seek. Bottom line.

I'm glad we got that settled.

Thanks

[Bfair]

Please don't misunderstand my post as being "standard mechanics".

When in doubt and if your partner has the better angle, it's best to get the information before the call. When done, BU merely points at PU and asks, "did he have the base", or "did YOU see a tag."

Changing a call is not an everyday event, is not a standard mechanic, and shouldn't be used as a crutch for good mechanics and solid judgment. Still, if blocked out due to the circumstances of the play, and if your partner likely has the needed information to help make an accurate call, then it's better to get the call right than to live with an obviously blown call.


Just my opinion,

Freix