A better way to handle?

[jo_54]

I went to watch an 8yr. old AABC Regional game last week and saw an interesting situation. Runners on first and third, two outs. The batter hit a grounder that went foul but was spinning and came back to hit first base and then roll on out towards right field. PU immediately called foul ball. The coaches were hollaring to their kids to run not paying attention to the PU. The batter ran to first R1 went to 2nd and R3 went home. Now, when the kids had heard PU declare the ball to be foul...they automatically stopped playing defense. Both team coaches went to confer with PU, then the BU came into the conversation and told the PU he was wrong with his call and the ball was in fact a fair ball, the runners would stay and the run scored. The defensive coach was upset since they lost the game by one run.

This is the first time I've seen the BU overturn the PU in front of the coaches without confering with each other first in private. He basically said to the PU he was stupid, I was shocked at this kind of officiating since it was during a Regional game.

I'm sure more experienced umpires wouldn't have called the ball foul until the ball is touched in foul territory but for the BU to humiliate the PU in front of all.....I just think that it could've been handled better. To my understanding after the game both umpires got reprimanded.

[Gold_Spark]

It is a huge pet peve of mine for umpires to call "FOUL" before the ball is actually considered foul.

The fact of the matter is . . . I think they should have considered the ball foul at that point whether it was the right call or not. Once the umpire calls a ball foul, the play is dead.

On further note . . . you're right. An umpire can never overturn another umpire's decision. NEVER! One umpire can ask the others for help . . . but if he makes the call. The call stands. (At least it should by mechanics unless there is a ruling at hand).

Seems to me that both of these fellas didn't have their best game on this day. I'm interested in seeing what our experienced members have to say about this situation.

Hopefully, they agree with me.

[senior]

The Plate Ump should be embarrassed by his premature call, and the Base Ump by his erroneous attempt to correct a bad foul ball call.

Once "foul" is declared, that's it. Runners stop running, fielders stop fielding, and most importantly, Umpires stop umpiring.

A call of "foul ball" effectively kills all action with a bang. In between innings, the Base Ump could comment and critique, but it won't change the fact that he should NOT comment or offer advice without being asked.

Senior

[Edited by senior on Jul 27th, 2002 at 08:52 PM]

[FVB_Ryan]

So then, IF asked for help by the PU (if you are the BU)... What do you say? The PU is my partner, and we are eachother's only friends. IMHO, I dont care how wrong he is... That play was his judgement, and I am not going to verbally disagree with his judgement in front of coaches if I have the slightest feeling that he is only asking me because he feels pressure to from the coaches. I will only tell him how I feel (while the play is still being discussed) if he asks me and i think that he really wants to know what i really think...and even then, i will pull him to the side to talk to him about it alone. So back to what I was really gonna ask... If he asks for your opinion in front of the coaches, would most of you just agree with him even know you knwo he is wrong... do you just pull some BS like "hey, it was your call, you called it how you saw it, right??? Call stands, let's play." Or something else?

[Gold_Spark]

First of all . . . if an umpire makes a call. He should never ask for help afterwards. If he was able to see the play good enough and make a call under his own judgement, that is the end of the story.

In my (brief) experience in umpiring, this has happened to me more than once. And yes Ryan . . . I normally dilly-dally around the subject or just plainly agree with my base umpire. I've NEVER disagreed with him and I never will. Because like you and I have calculated . . . the only reason an umpire asks for help after he makes a call is because he is feeling pressure from the coach.

Now if he asks me in front of the coaches after the game or something . . . that's a different story. I'm pretty outspoken. If he really wants to know my opinion . . . I'll tell him. Just never on the field.

To all umpires. If you make a call. Stand firm with your ruling. If you're out of position to make a call . . . ask for help. Those are your options.

[senior]

I can't imagine a partner asking for help AFTER calling a foul, but if he did, I'd certainly get real close to him before responding....and then I'd tell him to go get the ketchup from the concession stand, because he'll have to eat the "foul" call. Not in nasty manner, but I'd be leery of this partner until you worked together several more times, and he exhibited some better evidence of rule knowledge. Fair-foul, Ball-strike, safe-out are ones he better not have trouble with, because it all begins with those calls and gets more difficult from there on. A hit ball hitting a base is not something he should need help with, BEFORE or AFTER making a call.

Senior

[jicecone]

Call time out and step away from the coaches and discuss what you saw with your partner. Then have the official that made the ruling declare the final decision.

I was the BU on a Varsity HS game, in the A position. The ball was hit down the first base line. About 1 foot before the bag, the ball hit something and took a sharp right turn into foul territory. The PU's last view of the ball was fair and then he was blocked out by the batter/runner. He declared the ball fair. I immeadiatly put my hands up and announced foul. Called time out, moved away from the coaches and discussed it with my partner. He was concerned about overuling the call, but I convinced him that I was 100% positive that it was foul, and it was better to get the call right. We took some heat but both coaches new it was the correct call.

We were partners for all of our games, so we were comfortable with each others officiating however sometimes this isnt the case and one official will show up the other. You should always support your partner but if your not going to, dont do it on the field. Dissagree after the fact if they do not want to discuss with you. My partner and I had an understanding that it was more important to get the call right, then to try and BS your way out of the situation. This will come back to haunt you and earn you less respect then changing your call and taking some heat.

[robert]

"Coach, my pard called a foul ball, the runners are going back. I don't care if you think its right or wrong"

I ALWAYS back up my pard on a judgement call, even if for some reason he asks me for help, maybe pressure from coaches. One of the only two times this has happened was when I was PU (leadoff batter of the inning) and I clearly saw that the runner was safe, he asked me, we talked I said "Look Rogy, I got your back on that call, I am agreeing with you no matter what." Ever since then we never have talked about judgement calls. That was very disrecptful on the BUs part and furthermore the coaches have lost respect for both umps.

[BJ Moose]

How can you have a "Regional" anything for EIGHT year olds.......god......




>>>I went to watch an 8yr. old AABC Regional game last week

[jo_54]

Think what you may, but these 8 yr. olds are good. I watched these boys pitch and it's amazing. One of the pitchers has two uncles that pitched in the "Big Show" years back when Randy Johnson pitched for the Mariners. Both are retired and one of them is now the head pitching coach for one of the Mariners farm club teams. (Don't remember the level of minors.)

Now I could agree with you if I just went to watch just any 8 yr. old team play. Some of those games are a joke, but not these guys. They're really good. Also, the World Series is being played right now in Atlanta, Georgia. So take it from there......

[bluezebra]

"Think what you may, but these 8 yr. olds are good"

Maybe so, but few, if any, 8-year olds are emotionally ready for this kind of pressure.

Bob

[Bfair]

Originally posted by Gold_Spark
First of all . . . if an umpire makes a call. He should never ask for help afterwards. If he was able to see the play good enough and make a call under his own judgement, that is the end of the story.

In my (brief) experience in umpiring, this has happened to me more than once. And yes Ryan . . . I normally dilly-dally around the subject or just plainly agree with my base umpire. I've NEVER disagreed with him and I never will. Because like you and I have calculated . . . the only reason an umpire asks for help after he makes a call is because he is feeling pressure from the coach.

Now if he asks me in front of the coaches after the game or something . . . that's a different story. I'm pretty outspoken. If he really wants to know my opinion . . . I'll tell him. Just never on the field.

To all umpires. If you make a call. Stand firm with your ruling. If you're out of position to make a call . . . ask for help. Those are your options.

I find this recommendation to be pure crapola-----
------especially from one who brandishes his "brief" experience as an umpire.

While it's not good mechanics to have to reverse a call, reversing a call is generally done after obtaining information from your partner(s) after you have made an obviously poor call. All sets of rules, in one way or another, puts greater importance on getting the call right vs. protecting your perceived dignity---which is usually perceived by coaches as arrogance. There are factors beyond "feeling pressure from the coach" why a call should be reversed. How about---you blew it, and you know it as well as everyone else in the ballpark. I will agree, however, that if you saw the play and are certain of the call, you should not seek your partner's help merely to appease a complaining coach.

While not all wrong decisions can be reversed, living with an obviously poor decision that could be corrected does not have to occur---especially because somebody with "brief" experience advocates it as the proper thing to do. Gold Spark, those who make the rules disagree with you. You might wish to read them a little closer.

If you have legitimate reason to believe you have blown a call, and you are uncertain of your original call (but you were forced to make that decision due to the play circumstances), getting additional information from a partner may help you get the call correct if the play situation allows for that. Better to correct a call and get it right than look like and be a horse's a$$ by standing by an obviously wrong decision.

Gold Spark, I find your advice extemely poor and highlight it for that reason. Hopefully, the more experience you gain the better your initial calls will be, and the need to gain additional help and reverse a call will be minimized. Perhaps you've achieved that already.


Just my opinion,

Freix

[Bfair]

Originally posted by jicecone
Call time out and step away from the coaches and discuss what you saw with your partner. Then have the official that made the ruling declare the final decision.

I was the BU on a Varsity HS game, in the A position. The ball was hit down the first base line. About 1 foot before the bag, the ball hit something and took a sharp right turn into foul territory. The PU's last view of the ball was fair and then he was blocked out by the batter/runner. He declared the ball fair. I immeadiatly put my hands up and announced foul. Called time out, moved away from the coaches and discussed it with my partner. He was concerned about overuling the call, but I convinced him that I was 100% positive that it was foul, and it was better to get the call right. We took some heat but both coaches new it was the correct call.

Why did he "declare" the ball fair?
I hope most umpires here will agree that's very poor mechanics.
Additionally, since you were in A position, this call belonged to you, not him. You should have been watching the ball and reacting to the play (as you apparently did), and not backing off your proper call because you've got a PU who doesn't know what he's doing. If PU had only pointed fair, your foul call should stop play. If a coach complains, then you handle it as opposing calls on the same play, and hope your PU is smart enough to live with the proper foul call made by the proper official designated to make this call.

We were partners for all of our games, so we were comfortable with each others officiating however sometimes this isnt the case and one official will show up the other. You should always support your partner but if your not going to, dont do it on the field. Dissagree after the fact if they do not want to discuss with you. My partner and I had an understanding that it was more important to get the call right, then to try and BS your way out of the situation. This will come back to haunt you and earn you less respect then changing your call and taking some heat.

I'm surprised a crew that works together doesn't get simple mechanics correct. I would not be "comfortable" with this official who doesn't understand basic mechanics of umpiring. Making opposing calls is not disagreeing with your partner. Sometimes one official is better positioned to make a call and therefore sees it differently. That is why basic mechanics exist---they designate the coverage and hopefully the official WILL BE the official in the best position to make that call.

When opposing calls occur, live with the decision of the PU after conferencing---be that decision right or wrong. Provide him the information to make the final call, and don't argue or disagree at that point.

[/B]

Just my opinion,

Freix

[Bfair]

Originally posted by robert

I ALWAYS back up my pard on a judgement call, even if for some reason he asks me for help, maybe pressure from coaches.

If my partner asks me for help, I'm telling him what I saw.
He can then decide to use it or not. If I think he made a hor$e$hit call, I'll tell him that. He's probably there asking me to begin with because he has reason to believe he blew it. Nobody else is hearing what we are discussing.

If he comes to me on a check swing, I'll call what I think unless he's put himself in trouble by delaying too long or (in Fed) making the the mistake of arguing with the defense about not gaining help on the swing. If ever in doubt when being asked, I'll agree with pard. But if I'm certain of the call, I call what I see when asked.

Making a call different than your partner when you are brought into the play by him is NOT backstabbing your partner. Sometimes you are providing him exactly what he wants---HELP to get the call correct. That's why he came to you. Two wrongs don't make a right---they make an arrogant crew---especially if you know the call is wrong. Just be certain to only respond to your partner. Needless comments to anyone regarding a partner's call should not be done.


Just my opinion,

Freix

[Boone]

Now to deal with why the BU did what he did.

Just a thought. We've got a guy who transfered from a different association. All this guy does is badmouth his partners. Yet the guy personally is horsechit. "Why should I polish my shoes, they'll just get dirty" bad mechanics and the whole lot.

I've got a feeling there was a lot of history with the PU, and ALTHOUGH I'D NEVER DO SUCH A THING, the BU was sticking it to him. Maybe.

And no, I'm not talk about the Moose.