Botched Double play: Mechanic Help

[eagle_12]

Tailor-made 4-6-3 double play, great stop by F4, perfect feed to F6 coming across the bag, but....................

As F6 is catching the ball while coming across second, he never makes a catch (ball hits him in the gut, bobbles it a little, and drops it on the ground)

Runner thinking that the he would be out, and not causing contact, slid a good 10 ft. short of the bag. Well he got stuck in the muddy infield and then saw the ball dropped and had to scramble to second.

F6 recovered the ball and tried tagging the runner while scrambling towards the base.

My question is what is the proper verbal and visual mechanic for this?
The one I did was a double safe call. I called safe as he juggled the ball and thinking he was going to hang on and throw to first for the BR. I then did verbal/visual safe as they tried to scramble back to the bag

Afterwards, my thinking is that I probably shouldn't have said safe in the first "play" as the runner isn't technically safe, yet. My thinking would be that it should maybe be a "NO" verbal and the safe visual call and then if he tries to throw to first, make that call, then come back pointing towards second saying "Safe" while giving that signal along with a visul "juggling" mechanic. In this situation I think that I could give the "No" and safe visual, and then the verbal and visual "Safe"

But then I think that we don't say "no" in those types of plays so that's probably not a correct way to do it.

Just thought I would come on here and see if anyone has suggestions about how to handle this. As honestly I've never had this situation happen before. I'e had the juggling, but the runner is always finished his slide into the base.

Thanks for your help

[Cub42]

I would not make a call on the fielder juggling the ball for 2 reasons you stated. 1) He had no control of the ball and was not on the bag, 2) the runner was nowhere near the base as you stated. Now when F6 grabs the ball and attempts to tag runner, and you said he missed tag, verbally " No Tag" while making the safe sign

[RPatrino]

I would make a 'juggling' signal and a safe sign on the first attempt at the force play. The position of the runner has no bearing on making this call in a force situation. Would you make an out call if the fielder had made the play?

You also make the call on the second play, 'safe, no tag', or whatever verbiage suits you.

[bniu]

if u watch what MLB umpires at 2B do on the DP, most of them take a good 3-4 seconds before they casually bring up the fist to indicate the out. Just let the play finish and once it's clear, call it. same deal as in two man, ur first looking at 2nd, so just let the play develop, pause, and make the call.

[TussAgee11]

They don't call it early because they are waiting for action at the bag to be finished (possible INT).

Here, you better make a call, both verbal and signal, so players know what to do next. I like a "No!," everyone will know that we do NOT have an out, and the runner is still in jeopardy. Add juggling mechanic.

[Ump153]

Originally Posted by bniu

if u watch what MLB umpires at 2B do on the DP, most of them take a good 3-4 seconds before they casually bring up the fist to indicate the out.

MLB umpires can take four seconds, with four man mechanics, they don't have to prepare for the call at first.

If you're working two man, you can't be that casual.

[DG]

I don't see anything wrong with calling safe when you have a safe and out when you have an out. Two safes in a row means two different plays on the runner, both safe. A safe followed by an out is also two different plays on the same runner. An out followed by a safe is generally a correction...

[ozzy6900]

F6 doesn't have control of the ball and the runner is not near the base. Nothing to call here! No juggling sign, no safe signal because nothing has happened... yet!

And as far as if this were a 2 man situation, this is where the BU gives up and stops because there is still action at 2nd base. You cannot continue to "prepare for the call at 1st" until the call at 2nd is either made or the defense gives up on that runner and fires to 1st.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

And as far as if this were a 2 man situation, this is where the BU gives up and stops because there is still action at 2nd base.

BU should be stopped (standing set) before F6 receives the throw.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Ump153

MLB umpires can take four seconds, with four man mechanics, they don't have to prepare for the call at first.

If you're working two man, you can't be that casual.

Agreed. And: you can take your time making a routine "out" call. On this play, the runner needs to know whether he's out.

I agree with DG: rule on the attempted force play, then rule on the attempted tag play. I have no problem with "Safe!" twice (with the "safe" mechanic).

A "bobble" mechanic wouldn't hurt, but it also wouldn't add much.

[jicecone]

As an official, I don't see a need to be play-by-play announcer during a game, when a play is obvious to all, of what happened. It had to be obvious that F6 did not control the ball because he dropped it, so I probably would have not made any signal until F6 had secure possession of the ball and was therefore able to make a play on the runner.

I have seen many officials that are too much in a hurry to make a call and then have to change it because they did not wait for the play to be completed. Patience is important, yet communication of what you actually saw is also important on questionable calls.

Not sure if one mechanic is any better than the other however, if after all the flapping of you wings and hoogie koochie movements of the rest of your body, you still get the play wrong, then maybe you might want to try a different method.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by jicecone

It had to be obvious that F6 did not control the ball because he dropped it,

I'm not sure that's a valid assumption / conclusion.

But, I agree -- IF it was obvious, then no call is needed. If it wasn't obvious, then make the call.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by jicecone

if after all the flapping of you wings and hoogie koochie movements of the rest of your body, you still get the play wrong, then maybe you might want to try a different method.

What's a "hoogie koochie" movement? Is it anything like a "hoochie koochie" movement? And what is a "hoochie koochie" movement anyway?

Lawdy mama, light my fuse!

[robbie]

I was reading all of these posts pondering the amount of the bobble. Then I reread the post: The ball was dropped. Definately NO call is proper. With ball on ground, way too obvious to all.
The only call to be considered would be if the BU determined that the drop was AFTER the force out and then BU would have to clearly indicate an out. Ball lost on transfer.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

What's a "hoogie koochie" movement? Is it anything like a "hoochie koochie" movement? And what is a "hoochie koochie" movement anyway?

Lawdy mama, light my fuse!

A "hoogie koochie" movement is the sandwich form of the "hoochie koochie" movement. Beats the hell out of me Steve! Sometimes I am a whole lot better at making this stuff up then explaining it. But, I would definitely know one if I seen it.