Ball Four, in the dirt

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Ump153

Again...reading is apparently not your strong suit. Why do you make this stuff up....are you a coach? This is not what the man is saying.

And regards your little league scenario...I have NEVER had a high school coach or college skipper question why I threw a ball out of play.

Bingo. I'm just a little disappointed that it took you till post 29 to divine that.

[ozzy6900]

I think that we pretty much established the real answer early on in this thread:

This is MLB and not LL!

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

I understand - but most managers understand that they can't walk out onto the field before the runner reaches first - nor will time be called until he does.

In MLB they can, and do (by accepted practice).

Are you saying you immediately kill the ball the moment the manager indicates that he wants to walk out onto the field and talk to his pitcher based on the low probability that the runner will advance or that the catcher's throw-back will be wild?

Yes, in all the games I do.

To be clear, "immediately" means that I take about a second to see if BR is running hard to first on the walk, or is just strolling down there. 99.5% of the time it's the latter, and I grant time before BR reaches first.

Let's try another analogy:

Runners are supposed to retouch their bases after a foul, and the umpire isn't supposed to put the ball in play until they do. Yet, almost all of us put the ball in play when both teams indicate (by their actions) that they are ready for play to resume -- the runner is "close enough" to the base so that neither team gains an advantage.

It's the same with the exchange of the ball (in MLB) and the granting of time -- both teams have indicated that they are prepared for play to stop, even though the literal rule does not allow play to stop yet.

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by bobbybanaduck

if you want to go the sarcasm route with me, i'm game, sir. but, before we delve into that, are you fully prepared to contend that TODAY'S game is the same as the game was a DECADE ago? times change. the game changes. they don't want scuffed balls now, and, with people paying a ridiculous sum of money to watch, they have the loot to be able to provide a "perfect" ball for just about every pitch. it is what it is.

I'm sure there's some reason for it - probably just as you've explained.

I was just pointing out how it is an aspect of the game that has evolved that I think is a little silly and overdone. It's has almost gotten to the point that it's impossible to play with a ball that has been defamed so much as to have actually touched the ground. What horrors!

"Whatever will we do? It ... uh ... it actually touched the ground?"



And then I simply pointed out that the ball-swapping ritual is now being done during, what would technically be, live ball action.

And then I asked for nothing more than OPINIONS.

I'm sure you are correct.

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

In MLB they can, and do (by accepted practice).

I disagree that the managers walk out onto the field in a MLB game before the BR reaches first on a walk.

Unlike Little League and HS fields, it is such a long walk that, for that reason alone, it never happens. Plus, they tend to saunter out there so slowly - it is never seen.

Sure, they may come out of the dugout and start heading that way, but the batter has usually reached first by the time they get anywhere near the foul line. Plus, if you've ever noticed, most coaches do not even gesture to the PU for time until some time after they have emerged from the dugout.

I'm going to start watching more closely - but I don't think I've ever seen a manager cross the foul line before the BR has reached first in a MLB game.

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

I think that we pretty much established the real answer early on in this thread:

This is MLB and not LL!

That's probably the best explanation. I agree.

Yet, I'll maintain that I don't think I've ever seen a MLB cross the foul line before a batter has reached 1st.

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

I disagree that the managers walk out onto the field in a MLB game before the BR reaches first on a walk.

Unlike Little League and HS fields, it is such a long walk that, for that reason alone, it never happens. Plus, they tend to saunter out there so slowly - it is never seen.

Sure, they may come out of the dugout and start heading that way, but the batter has usually reached first by the time they get anywhere near the foul line.

David watch again. I bet we could fill this Forum with CONCRETE examples of a manager heading to the mound way before B1 reaches first base. This is accepted practice at the major league level.

How many times have you watched Joe Torre motioning for the great Rivera when the previous F1 walked the batter. The batter no sooner tosses his bat down and out comes Torre motioning for MO and it's not just Torre.


Back in the day you had guys really doctoring the baseball like Gaylord Perry. Since MLB is a billion dollar industry, they can afford new baseballs. Also, look at the REAL picture. Whenever an outfielder makes a catch for the third out it's commonplace for him to simply toss the ball in the stands.

Same is true for the ball Boys/Girls on the first/ third base side. They also toss balls into the stands etc.

FWIW you cannot compare what is done or accepted in MLB to what we do. Heck I bet most of us umpired games where we only had 1 / 2 baseballs left (scuffed or not) and if they were lost we were down to the "real scraps" that's the world of amateur baseball NOT even close to MLB.

Pete Booth

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

Yet, I'll maintain that I don't think I've ever seen a MLB cross the foul line before a batter has reached 1st.

That's not where the field begins.

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I mean I call time as soon as the defensive coach asks for time. I don't do the "wait until the batter gets to fir.....OK, TIME" nonsense.

This doesn't have to be made into a big scene. It usually isn't. There doesn't need to be any melodramatic and overly officious attempt to embarrass the coach. I realize sometimes they get so excited that they want to burst out onto the field. A simple, subtle, and silent hand gesture usually conveys the message and the coach will generally slow down as he is walking out onto the field, giving the BR time to reach 1st. I subtly raise my index finger in the "just wait a sec" position and all is solved. They get it.

I'm not so anal as to require him to remain in the dugout but I do expect him to remain off the infield before the batter gets to 1st. In any case, the coach should know better. Most experienced coaches already know this and no intervention on the part of the umpire is usually required.

[Ump153]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

I disagree that the managers walk out onto the field in a MLB game before the BR reaches first on a walk.

Wow. You disagree that something happens that in reality happens nearly every day in one MLB game or another.

This thread has now reached the absurd.

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Perhaps a higher mound explains it a heck of alot better.

That's an old baseball physics myth.

Robert K. Adair, Ph.D., in his excellent book, The Physics of Baseball, addresses many of these baseball myths - the "advantage" of the higher mound being one of them.

When the mound was lowered, the slope remained the same. In other words, the higher mounds were not any steeper than the lower mounds.

The height of the pitcher's plate has been changed at times. If the slope in front is retained at 1 inch to 1 foot, the height is almost irrelevant to the pitcher-batter competition. A decrease (or increase) in height of 2 inches is then precisely equivalent to an increase (or decrease) in the height of the plate - and the strike zone - by 2 inches, and the effect is that of making the pitcher throw each pitch 2 inches higher (or lower). However, if the slope is changed and the pitcher's foot lands at a different height, the leverage of the pitcher will change, and that can affect the delivery.

It's all explained - just like the myth of the "rising" fastball.

On the other hand, the advantage of a scuffed baseball is real.

[David Emerling]

[QUOTE=PeteBooth;623442]

David watch again. I bet we could fill this Forum with CONCRETE examples of a manager heading to the mound way before B1 reaches first base. This is accepted practice at the major league level.

How many times have you watched Joe Torre motioning for the great Rivera when the previous F1 walked the batter. The batter no sooner tosses his bat down and out comes Torre motioning for MO and it's not just Torre.


Back in the day you had guys really doctoring the baseball like Gaylord Perry. Since MLB is a billion dollar industry, they can afford new baseballs. Also, look at the REAL picture. Whenever an outfielder makes a catch for the third out it's commonplace for him to simply toss the ball in the stands.

Same is true for the ball Boys/Girls on the first/ third base side. They also toss balls into the stands etc.

FWIW you cannot compare what is done or accepted in MLB to what we do. Heck I bet most of us umpired games where we only had 1 / 2 baseballs left (scuffed or not) and if they were lost we were down to the "real scraps" that's the world of amateur baseball NOT even close to MLB.

Pete Booth

First of all, I agree that it is common for managers to exit the dugout before the batter reaches first but I disagree that they are actually on the field (i.e. crosses the foul line) before the BR reaches first - not even Joe Torre.

This thread has taken many twists. I do not pretend to suggest that what is done at the MLB level should always apply to amateur levels, and vice versa.

Two simple points:

1) I just expressed the opinion that I find it mildly annoying and anal as to how the ball-switching occurs so frequently at the MLB level, and

2) I found it mildly curious how there seems to be no concern that this switching occurs during a live ball situation where a runner is advancing.

I understand the explanations. I understand the unlikelihood that the BR is going to advance to 2nd.

Bob Jenkins thought it was analogous to runners "returning" after a foul ball. I don't think that is completely analogous because those runners are clearly not advancing whereas the BR is most definitely advancing. Yet, I see his point, and it's probably a good one.

Personally, while a BR is trotting down to 1st I would prefer to see the catcher throw the ball back to the pitcher -or- at least ask for a new ball -or- wait for me to hand him a new ball. Just as I do not honor a request for time by a relay man in the outfield, even though the runners have apparently stopped advancing. At least get the ball out of the outfield and into the infield before you start asking me to kill the play. Just like I do not honor an immediate request for time every time a runner returns to a base after a pickoff attempt unless, of course, we have one of those obnoxious fielders who will never take their glove off the runner. I say, throw the ball back to the pitcher and get up - all while the ball is live. Now, if they have a belt full of dirt, that's a different matter.

[Kevin Finnerty]

Originally Posted by Ump153

Wow. You disagree that something happens that in reality happens nearly every day in one MLB game or another.

This thread has now reached the absurd.

Apparently, reading comprehension is not a strong suit of yours, as you drive home once again with your condescending remarks on this thread. The irony is that while showing poor comprehension, you're downing this guy for his comprehension.

A new high.

Originally Posted by Ump153

Again...reading is apparently not your strong suit. Why do you make this stuff up....are you a coach? This is not what the man is saying.

Apparently, comprehending humor is not your strong suit.

[eagle_12]

This is MLB. That's the way they do it. Also it's a time saver in a sport that is trying to save time and make the experience more enjoyable.

If they changed there practices this is how it would go. Ball 4 in dirt. Catcher asks for a new ball. Ump says "I can't yet, ball's still live". Catcher waits for batter to disrobe (elbow armor, shin protector, batting gloves) and leave everything in a nice little pile at the plate and saunter down to first base. Catcher then returns the ball to pitcher. Ump calls time asks for the ball back. Catcher and Ump then dance a little to figure out the exchange of baseballs, catcher tosses his back, Ump tosses his to the dugout and misses, ball goes rolling down the railing. Then the pitcher rubs up the ball, walks around the mound a little, grabs some rosin, take a deep breath and then toes the rubber.

Current practice, Ball 4 in the dirt, quick exchange, ball back in pitchers hand before batter reaches first base, we're ready to play. No harm No foul.

I would think that if a MLB player/club tried to advance to second on a walk with or without a runner at 3rd, someones getting a Rawlings tattoo

[realistic]

Here is a little inside info, not all umpires raise their hands when they call time to take a ball out of play. Not every ball tossed out by a PU is discarded. Most are rubbed back up by the bat boy and put back into the gameball bag.

And one more thing, when a question ask's how a MLB guy does something, who gives a crap how it's done in anything else???