Interference and Force Out, Baseball Style

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

NCASAUmp made started a thread (see Interference and force out) on Softball Forum on Tue., Aug. 04, 2009, with the following post:

"Sitch: R1 on 3B, R2 on 1B, 2 outs. B4 hits a dribbler that touches the top of 1B. R2, thinking it's a foul ball, trots back to the ball, picks it up and tosses it to F3. The ball did not pass any infielder, nor was it touched by any infielder. R2 was not in contact with 1B when he picked up the ball. R1 had crossed the plate before R2 touched the ball.

There's no doubt that R2 is out. The question is: is this considered a force out? My instinct tells me, "no sh1t, Dave, do you even need to ask? O f course it is!" Yet something is nagging me in the back of my mind on this one."


The Softball thread is up to four pages and is causing some grinding of teeth because of the lack of an ASA rule that prevents the run from scoring. My opinion is that the run should not score in the softball game but my opinion is not important. I would like to start a discussion about this as a baseball play per NFHS, NCAA, and OBR.

Ladies and germs (oops, I mean gentlemen), let the discussion begin.

MTD, Sr.

[briancurtin]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Sitch: R1 on 3B, R2 on 1B

Did R1 pass up R2 before R2 ran the bases in reverse?

[jkumpire]

MTD:

I can't quote the rule, but under all codes it is a force out. BR did not make 1B did he? Since he didn't, R2 can't score on the play.

Brian, reread MTD. He is say R3, R1, 2 out. the bases are not loaded.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by briancurtin

Did R1 pass up R2 before R2 ran the bases in reverse?

Brian:

I cut and pasted NCASAUmp's post from the Softball Forum.

MTD, Sr.

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

MTD:

I can't quote the rule, but under all codes it is a force out. BR did not make 1B did he? Since he didn't, R2 can't score on the play.

Brian, reread MTD. He is say R3, R1, 2 out. the bases are not loaded.

The BR did get to first base. R1 is out. R3 returns to third base. Force out or not has nothing to do with this play.

[Rich Ives]

The whole issue onthe SB side is whether it's a force out which would cancel the run, or bascally a time play which would allow the run.

In OBR it doesn't matter because:

7.08 Any runner is out when—
(f) He is touched by a fair ball in fair territory before the ball has touched or passed an infielder. The ball is dead and no runner may score, nor runners advance, except runners forced to advance.

In NCAA it doesn't matter because:

SECTION 2. The ball becomes dead and base runners return when:
e. A fair-hit ball touches a runner in fair territory before touching an
infielder or an umpire and before passing all infielders, other than the
pitcher. Runner(s) advance if forced

In FED the dead ball table says runners return unless forced but I can't find it in the rules proper.

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

The Softball thread is up to four pages and is causing some grinding of teeth because of the lack of an ASA rule that prevents the run from scoring.

I just looked through that discussion. The reason it is so long isn't because of a lack of a rule. It is long because some people over there just aren't very smart.

[GA Umpire]

Originally Posted by LDUB

I just looked through that discussion. The reason it is so long isn't because of a lack of a rule. It is long because some people over there just aren't very smart.

I can think of 2 which may drag this out.

[mbyron]

For FED: score the run. R3 had scored at TOI. The batter did not make the 3rd out, R1 did. It was INT with a batted ball, which cannot be a force play.

8-2-9: "In the event of interference,
a runner returns to the base he had legally reached at the time of the
interference."

8-4-2k: "Any runner is out when he ... is contacted by a fair batted ball before it touches an infielder, or after it
passes any infielder, except the pitcher, and the umpire is convinced that
another infielder has a play (5-1-1f, 6-1-5)."

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

The whole issue onthe SB side is whether it's a force out which would cancel the run, or bascally a time play which would allow the run.

In OBR it doesn't matter because:

7.08 Any runner is out when—
(f) He is touched by a fair ball in fair territory before the ball has touched or passed an infielder. The ball is dead and no runner may score, nor runners advance, except runners forced to advance.

In NCAA it doesn't matter because:

SECTION 2. The ball becomes dead and base runners return when:
e. A fair-hit ball touches a runner in fair territory before touching an
infielder or an umpire and before passing all infielders, other than the
pitcher. Runner(s) advance if forced

In FED the dead ball table says runners return unless forced but I can't find it in the rules proper.

I agree that OBR clearly states R3 returns on this play. Are you sure that NCAA returns runners to the TOP base and not the TOI base?

[Dave Reed]

Originally Posted by mbyron

For FED: score the run. R3 had scored at TOI. The batter did not make the 3rd out, R1 did. It was INT with a batted ball, which cannot be a force play.
8-2-9: "In the event of interference, a runner returns to the base he had legally reached at the time of the interference."

I don't fully buy either one of these points. R1 is in a force play, but the out by interference doesn't meet the FED definition of a force-out, which is specifically runner tagged or base tagged. However, rule 9-1-1, which governs scoring runs, has the following exception:
" d. when a third out is declared during a play in which an umpire observed a base-running infraction resulting in a force-out (this out takes precedence if enforcement of it would negate a score);"

Firstly, this usage of force-out doesn't match the definition in Rule 2-24-1. Also, while it is a stretch to consider deliberate interfernce as a "base-running infraction", I think that the intent of the rule is to deny the score whenever a forced runner is out before reaching his forced base. At least that's what my secret decoder ring says.
The exception quoted above doesn't appear in OBR, and it doesn't need to: OBR doesn't allow the score on interference, and by interpretation, a force-out includes outs made by base-running infractions (e.g. out of baseline)

Now regarding 8-2-9, consider the following play, in which no one is forced. 2 outs, R2, R3, with R3 going on the pitch, soft pop up to shortstop. R2 bulls his way into the defensive play and catches or knocks down the ball, after R3 had crossed the plate. Do you score the run? Absent the interference, B/R would make the 3rd out, and no run would score. With the interference, and taking 8-2-9 as gospel, R2 made the 3rd out and the run scores.

I suppose the most umpires would rule that the inteference started before R3 crossed the plate.

[Dave Reed]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I agree that OBR clearly states R3 returns on this play. Are you sure that NCAA returns runners to the TOP base and not the TOI base?

Not Rich, but NCAA 2-50:
A.R. 1—If the umpire declares the batter, batter-runner or a runner out for interference, all other runners shall return to the last base that was touched legally at the time of the interference, unless otherwise provide by these rules. The ball is dead.
A.R. 2—If the batter-runner has not touched first base at the time of interference, all runners shall return to the base last occupied at the time of the pitch. If there was an intervening play made on another runner, all runners shall return to the base last touched at the time of interference.

So, TOP if B/R hasn't reached 1st at the time of interference; otherwise TOI. In my opinion, this is a good construct.

[jkumpire]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Brian:

I cut and pasted NCASAUmp's post from the Softball Forum.

MTD, Sr.

Folks,

I am sorry, I misread the situation. It is still obvious the run doesn't score, but...

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Dave Reed

So, TOP if B/R hasn't reached 1st at the time of interference; otherwise TOI. In my opinion, this is a good construct.

I agree. Notice that it would not necessarily rule "correctly" on your case above: R2, R3, popup to F6, R2 knocks over F6 after R3 scores and BR touches 1B. NCAA ruling seems to be: score the run.

I'm intrigued with your "secret decoder ring" interp -- gotta get me one of those. But the provision of 9-1-1 clearly applies to outs called for base-running infractions, not interference.

You might be right that most of us would rule INT before R3 crossed the plate. I'll just point out that the rules do not define "time of interference." In your case play, I suppose you could rule that the TOI was the duration of the fielder's attempt to field the batted ball.

I'm not especially concerned to grant a run in this scenario. But as I think about the play, I'm struggling to figure out what the defense was doing: if the play continued long enough for R3 to cross the plate before R1 touched the ball, the defense has screwed up by not playing a live ball. If this interval is sufficiently long, I can see scoring the run (and might have to by NCAA rules).

Still have to call INT, though, as it's a fair ball.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Dave Reed

I don't fully buy either one of these points. R1 is in a force play, but the out by interference doesn't meet the FED definition of a force-out, which is specifically runner tagged or base tagged.

IMO, it's just a "wording error" in the books. The "being forced out" (which is in all the books) really means "by a runner who was forced to advance."