Batter Returns To Plate After Hitting Fair Ball

[Rich Ives]

The BR at first is NOT a force. Nothing to re-instate.

[waltjp]

Maybe the coaches are different in your neck of the woods but around here the third base coach would have been in near complete cardiac arrest if he saw his B/R heading back for the plate and not looking for his sign as he neared second base.

[justanotherblue]

Originally Posted by GA Umpire

I will not re-instate the force unless the runner touches(passes back) over 1B. If he is heading toward 2B or swings around in foul territory and makes no effort to retouch 1B, I am only calling him out for abandonment which is a timing play.

To re-instate the force without the runner actually making some kind of gesture to retouch is going to cause more problems b/c he didn't actually touch(pass over) the base again. Making that call is grabbing the wrong end since the runner did nothing to re-instate the force.

So, if the runner attempts or actually does retouch 1B, then the force is re-instated. If he doesn't, then abandonment will be called once he reaches HP and the run scores.

You have a good argument with 4.09 and as Rich pointed out, technically it isn't a force at 1B. However I belive you understood what I meant.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Fixed it for ya.

Thanks, I didn't proof-read it. I corrected it.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

UmpTT & jwwashurn,

I will just keep pointing the ball fair until SOMEBODY gets the message. If necessary, I will move up the 1B line and block the batter's return to HP.

Everybody can't be THAT stupid. And this is 18U? Sheesh!

JM

Originally Posted by jwwashburn

You have got to be kidding! You are going intentionally obstruct a runner?

Originally Posted by GA Umpire

I agree with pointing fair but I am not going to hold it up forever. Once he comes about halfway, I am done trying to let them know MY call.

Also, why are you going to stand in his way? Now, that is interfering with the game and going too far IMO. Once he has established he is not going to acknowledge MY call, I am letting him do what he wants and calling him out as soon as he gets to the plate for abandonment(score the run).

JM,

I have to go with Joe and Georgia on this one. I'm not going to try to help the runner other than point emphatically fair until he passes my position, and then when he gets to the plate, he's done.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by jwwashburn

You have got to be kidding! You are going intentionally obstruct a runner?

jwwashburn,

1. By rule/definition, official interpretation, and custom & practice, it is impossible for an umpire to obstruct a runner. Should an umpire impede a runner's progress on the bases, the proper call is "tough noogies".

2. A BR cannot be obstructed while returning to home plate.

So, sure, why not?

Originally Posted by Blue37

JM,

I was the PU and had come out pretty hard toward third to rule on the fair/foul. Foul territory slopes down to the corner of the fence, so I had gone even further after the ball hit to watch for problems, so I was right at third when the ball came back in. The defense did not react to grandpa's shout. The batter was already at the plate area when I first noticed it was him rather than the next batter. Time had not been called, so I just assumed my position, then called time when he took his position. I went to my partner to see if he had sent him back, and he said he had not. I asked if he had touched first and he had, so we called him out for abandonment and scored the run.

Had this occurred down the right field line, an additional point or two might have solved the problem, but that was not possible with the ball down the left field line.

Blue37,

Sometimes the circumstances of the play conspire against the umpire.

However, it is difficult for me to imagine how, in an 18U game, neither the BR, his base coaches, nor any of his teammates on the bench, any of the defensive players on the field, nor any of the defensive coaches could be unaware of the foul/fair status of a batted ball that was "hard hit" and "close to the line" when it landed. And that they would ALL (incorrectly) believe that it had been ruled foul.

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

JM,

I have to go with Joe and Georgia on this one. I'm not going to try to help the runner other than point emphatically fair until he passes my position, and then when he gets to the plate, he's done.

Steve,

I may have employed a bit of hyperbole with my "..block the batter's return..." comment.

But why do you think I was "helping" the runner rather than the defense? Sounds like they didn't have a clue either.

If NOBODY on the field knows that the ball has been ruled fair (despite "grandpa's" declaration that it was so), then I have to conclude that the umpiring was deficient. If you make a call and NOBODY knows it, you didn't really make a call.

This is a "third world play". After reading Peter Osborne's article on the subject....

Officiating.com : Baseball : Third-World Plays Happen Only to Third-World Umpires

I make it a point not to have them in my games.

I too find Joe and GA Ump's suggested ruling correct for the play as posed, as I suggested in my initial post. The point I was trying to make is that you don't want to let it get to that point if you're the umpire. It's a goat rodeo waiting to happen.

I mean, do you want to get in an esoteric discussion with a coach about whether the run scores or not depending on how you decide to call the BR out in this sitch? As I much as I enjoy such discussions, I would not look forward to this one on the field.

Don't let it happen.

JM

[Blue37]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

If NOBODY on the field knows that the ball has been ruled fair (despite "grandpa's" declaration that it was so), then I have to conclude that the umpiring was deficient. If you make a call and NOBODY knows it, you didn't really make a call.

This is a "third world play". After reading Peter Osborne's article on the subject....

Officiating.com : Baseball : Third-World Plays Happen Only to Third-World Umpires

I make it a point not to have them in my games.

I too find Joe and GA Ump's suggested ruling correct for the play as posed, as I suggested in my initial post. The point I was trying to make is that you don't want to let it get to that point if you're the umpire. It's a goat rodeo waiting to happen.

I mean, do you want to get in an esoteric discussion with a coach about whether the run scores or not depending on how you decide to call the BR out in this sitch? As I much as I enjoy such discussions, I would not look forward to this one on the field.

Don't let it happen.

JM

JM,

I suggest you take a step back and breathe deeply. Some of your recent posts have not been up to your usual standards and this is one of them. Your rules and mechanics knowledge is beyond most, but a few of your statements on the other aspects of umpiring reveal that you are still a "young" umpire. Your position on this play puts you out on a limb with a saw in your hand. A wise man once said, "When you find yourself in a hole, quit digging."

Most of the 18U ball around here is pretty good, but there are some inner-city teams that are dreadful and this was one of them. For the most part, these players are the ones left over after the school teams, the travel teams, and the regular league teams have made their selections. The kids are very respectful and hustle their butts off, but their skill level is such that every play is a potential third world play. The coaches are equally inept, but I applaud their willingness to spend time with these young men. It is not our responsibility to save a coach or player from his mistake. I think you are letting your past come out when you suggest an umpire should interject themselves into a game in that manner.

There was no deficiency in the umpiring. The ball landed fair, and was signaled fair. To the best of my knowledge, they only person who thought it was foul was the first base coach.

There are no esoteric discussions in my games and I do not decide how to call a batter out. I let the rules make that decision for me. I explained the call to both coaches in less than 15 seconds and the game proceeded.

The point of sharing situations like this on the board is so others will know how to handle them if they come up. I hope those who read this thread will be able to parse the good suggestions from the bad.

I honestly admire, and even envy, your ability to quickly grasp the nuances of rules and appreciate the way you, for the most part, keep yourself above the fray when the discussion denigrates. I hope you are around for many years to come!

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

....
2. A BR cannot be obstructed while returning to home plate.
...

Any rules support for this? I could imagine a situation where BR is running towards home to avoid a tag by F3 and runs into F2 (who is in the base path). Even though this is HIGHLY unlikely, would you not have to call obstruction on this? Maybe there is a rule somewhere though that I haven't picked up yet. Thanks

-Josh

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by jdmara

Any rules support for this? I could imagine a situation where BR is running towards home to avoid a tag by F3 and runs into F2 (who is in the base path). Even though this is HIGHLY unlikely, would you not have to call obstruction on this? Maybe there is a rule somewhere though that I haven't picked up yet. Thanks

-Josh

I think PBUC says something like "cannot be obstructed returning to home, unless the act is intentional."

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I think PBUC says something like "cannot be obstructed returning to home, unless the act is intentional."

Thanks Bob

-Josh

[SAump]

Originally Posted by Blue37

JM,

I suggest you take a step back and breathe deeply. Some of your recent posts have not been up to your usual standards and this is one of them. Your rules and mechanics knowledge is beyond most, but a few of your statements on the other aspects of umpiring reveal that you are still a "young" umpire. Your position on this play puts you out on a limb with a saw in your hand. A wise man once said, "When you find yourself in a hole, quit digging."

Most of the 18U ball around here is pretty good, but there are some inner-city teams that are dreadful and this was one of them. For the most part, these players are the ones left over after the school teams, the travel teams, and the regular league teams have made their selections. The kids are very respectful and hustle their butts off, but their skill level is such that every play is a potential third world play. The coaches are equally inept, but I applaud their willingness to spend time with these young men. It is not our responsibility to save a coach or player from his mistake. I think you are letting your past come out when you suggest an umpire should interject themselves into a game in that manner.

There was no deficiency in the umpiring. The ball landed fair, and was signaled fair. To the best of my knowledge, they only person who thought it was foul was the first base coach.

There are no esoteric discussions in my games and I do not decide how to call a batter out. I let the rules make that decision for me. I explained the call to both coaches in less than 15 seconds and the game proceeded.

The point of sharing situations like this on the board is so others will know how to handle them if they come up. I hope those who read this thread will be able to parse the good suggestions from the bad.

I honestly admire, and even envy, your ability to quickly grasp the nuances of rules and appreciate the way you, for the most part, keep yourself above the fray when the discussion denigrates. I hope you are around for many years to come!

So if a B/R came walking back to the plate to retake his position in the batter's box, perhaps he saw something that may have suggested the ball was indeed foul. I happen to agree with "a tree falling in the middle of the woods" analogy. Making an abandonment call in this situation may have brought down the forrest. Now what if instead of walking away after your 15 second explanation, the coach refused to accept your explanation and requested to protest your abandonment call?

The obstruction by an umpire idea was a downright clever addition. What should happen when an umpire is signalling a fair ball and the players themselves aren't buying it? I would begin to think, well, maybve grandpa was a better umpire or had a better view. Can we put everyone back, add a strike to the count, if needed, and play it over again? I'm not saying this is the best choice, just providing an alternate point of view.

[Blue37]

Originally Posted by SAump

So if a B/R came walking back to the plate to retake his position in the batter's box, perhaps he saw something that may have suggested the ball was indeed foul.

The only thing that suggested the ball was foul was the 1st base coach. Remember that the ball was down the 3rd base line.

Originally Posted by SAump

Now what if instead of walking away after your 15 second explanation, the coach refused to accept your explanation and requested to protest your abandonment call?

This was an inter-league game and the umpires are the protest committee. If there is a shread of doubt in my mind, I will go to the car and get the book. If there is no doubt, we will play ball. It is the coach's decision as to whether he will join us.

Originally Posted by SAump

The obstruction by an umpire idea was a downright clever addition.

Surely you jest.

Originally Posted by SAump

What should happen when an umpire is signalling a fair ball and the players themselves aren't buying it?

Fair ball. It happens.

Originally Posted by SAump

maybve grandpa was a better umpire or had a better view.

Grandpa's ability and vision are not an issue as both he and the umpire had the same call.

Originally Posted by SAump

Can we put everyone back, add a strike to the count, if needed, and play it over again?

Again, surely you jest.

[Ump Rube]

Originally Posted by Blue37

Surely you jest.

I'm not and don't call me Shirley.

Thank you, thank you, I am here all week (not really, but I always wanted to say that).

[socalblue1]

I had a similar play in an 18U game a couple of weeks ago. Big two bouncer up the 3B line. went right over the bag & hit chalk on the other side. batter shook his head & started back to the box. A couple of seconds later I hear from the dugout "It's fair moron, RUN!". Relay via F6 from the LF corner missed batter-runner by a 1/2 step. He ended up being the game winning run .... It happens.

[Dave Reed]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I think PBUC says something like "cannot be obstructed returning to home, unless the act is intentional."

In case somebody wants to look it up, the cite is PBUC 4.31 and MLBUM 6.23.