I saw it out of the corener of my eye.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Don't assume others can't do something just because you can't.

Vision skills can be learned. Seek some advice on drills you can do.

Can you see the runner leaving from behind the plate as the pitcher is releasing the baseball. I doubt it. Go try it sometime.

And Kyle...in your games, the runner can't leave until the pitch crosses home plate. Well, duh, that's a whole lot easier to see a runner leaving early. Trying to see it while watching the pitcher release the baseball is foolhardy. Your attention can't be split, and sorry Rich, the human eye does not have the same range as a fly or a lizard. You cannot look directly forward and 90° to the right simultaneously.

And besides, Joe said there was a base umpire!!! That is his call. Why would the plate umpire interject where he doesn't belong? That should be the whole point here: Why didn't the base umpire do his job to begin with, so Joe would not have to argue with the lying PU who said that his runner left early when according to Joe, whose opinion I trust more than the clown behind the plate, he did not.

[Ump Rube]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Can you see the runner leaving from behind the plate as the pitcher is releasing the baseball. I doubt it. Go try it sometime.

And Kyle...in your games, the runner can't leave until the pitch crosses home plate. Well, duh, that's a whole lot easier to see a runner leaving early. Trying to see it while watching the pitcher release the baseball is foolhardy. Your attention can't be split, and sorry Rich, the human eye does not have the same range as a fly or a lizard. You cannot look directly forward and 90° to the right simultaneously.

And besides, Joe said there was a base umpire!!! That is his call. Why would the plate umpire interject where he doesn't belong? That should be the whole point here: Why didn't the base umpire do his job to begin with, so Joe would not have to argue with the lying PU who said that his runner left early when according to Joe, whose opinion I trust more than the clown behind the plate, he did not.

This might just be fuel on the fire, but from behind the plate the angle to 1B would be a little less the 45°. I agree you cannot split your vision 50/50 on this, but it does allow you to see the movement with your peripheral vision well. But truly getting back to the point, with 2-men this is the BU's call all the way, unless a runner at 2B which might be the PU's depending on 60'/90'. With 1-man do your best to see the movement, which is what is picked up best with peripheral.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Ump Rube

This might just be fuel on the fire, but from behind the plate the angle to 1B would be a little less the 45°. I agree you cannot split your vision 50/50 on this, but it does allow you to see the movement with your peripheral vision well. But truly getting back to the point, with 2-men this is the BU's call all the way, unless a runner at 2B which might be the PU's depending on 60'/90'. With 1-man do your best to see the movement, which is what is picked up best with peripheral.

Yes, you are correct with the angle, and yes, you can detect some movement. But can you accurately call the leaving early while still focusing on the ball that is being released? That is why I said earlier that I'm not calling that from the plate unless the runner is blatantly off the base, as in 3 or 4 steps, where it is obvious. In this case however, Joe said that he was in a position to see both the pitcher and the runner in his direct line of vision, and that the runner actually got a late jump from 1st base, well after the pitcher released the ball. So my big concern is that the PU made the call to "make up" for the ones that the BU (who must be a real dandy umpire...probably playing pocket pool with his Johnson out there) had missed.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Can you see the runner leaving from behind the plate as the pitcher is releasing the baseball. I doubt it. Go try it sometime.

And Kyle...in your games, the runner can't leave until the pitch crosses home plate. Well, duh, that's a whole lot easier to see a runner leaving early. Trying to see it while watching the pitcher release the baseball is foolhardy. Your attention can't be split, and sorry Rich, the human eye does not have the same range as a fly or a lizard. You cannot look directly forward and 90° to the right simultaneously.

And besides, Joe said there was a base umpire!!! That is his call. Why would the plate umpire interject where he doesn't belong? That should be the whole point here: Why didn't the base umpire do his job to begin with, so Joe would not have to argue with the lying PU who said that his runner left early when according to Joe, whose opinion I trust more than the clown behind the plate, he did not.

1) it's less than 45 degrees

2) Catcher's can see the movement and still catch the pitch.

3) All those fancy "no-look" passes you see in basketball are because the players CAN see the movement (and the uniform color) in their peripheral vision.

4) Running backs make all those fancy cuts because they can see the peripheral activity.

But you need to learn how to do it.

[jwwashburn]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

1) it's less than 45 degrees

2) Catcher's can see the movement and still catch the pitch.

3) All those fancy "no-look" passes you see in basketball are because the players CAN see the movement (and the uniform color) in their peripheral vision.

4) Running backs make all those fancy cuts because they can see the peripheral activity.

But you need to learn how to do it.

Rich, it is not movement that you have to see to make this call. It is the foot of the baserunner leaving the base before the ball leaves the pitcher's hand. You cannot do it, you never have done it, you never will do it and nobody else can, has or will, either.

Even the proper mechanics makes this a difficult call for the BU. it is very rare for the runner to leave early by a lot.

I probably called 10 girls leave early as BU in about 40 FP games I did on the bases last summer-mostly competitive tournaments. I had about the same number called by my partners when I was PU in about 50 games. I did not see one of them leave early when I was PU.

[waltjp]

[jwwashburn]

As long as people keep telling me they can see Wichita while standing on the beach in California facing the Pacific Ocean, I will tell them they cannot.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by jwwashburn

As long as people keep telling me they can see Wichita while facing the Pacific Ocean, I will tell them they cannot.

You can if you're East of Wichita.

[jwwashburn]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

You can if you're East of Wichita.

I edited it to make it more precise.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by waltjp

the horse isn't dead until these people stop saying that they can accurately call this from behind the plate with absolute certainty.

[Ump Rube]

Originally Posted by waltjp

Is it just me or does his left hand appear to be a part of the bat?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Ump Rube

Is it just me or does his left hand appear to be a part of the bat?

THAT is your best post to date.

[Brett]

Originally Posted by mbyron

THAT is your best post to date.

Indeed.



Put me in the "no chance camp". Ball leaving hand and foot leaving 1B at the same time... no chance. Not even with 60' bases.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

3) All those fancy "no-look" passes you see in basketball are because the players CAN see the movement (and the uniform color) in their peripheral vision.

Hey that's kinda funny: I was refereeing basketball last night, standing behind the endline, and one team passed the ball to me 3 times. Never happened to me before.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

1) it's less than 45 degrees

2) Catcher's can see the movement and still catch the pitch.

3) All those fancy "no-look" passes you see in basketball are because the players CAN see the movement (and the uniform color) in their peripheral vision.

4) Running backs make all those fancy cuts because they can see the peripheral activity.

But you need to learn how to do it.

When was the last time you umpired 180+ games a year for 20 years? I can see just what I can see, and that is an approximate time that the runner took off. Fortunately, I have never had to umpire a game where runners couldn't leave until the ball is pitched. Sounds like some kind of cockamamy softball thing.

Yeah, catchers can see movement and catch a pitch, but can they tell with certainty that the runner left before the ball left the hand? NO, they cannot. And neither can an umpire who is focused on the baseball. The catcher does not have to determine the precise time that the runner's foot leaves the base. The umpire does, and then has to have some a-hole get in his face about it when he makes the wrong decision. The catcher gets to go take off his gear and sit down after his team gets 3 outs.

I played and reffed hoops, and yeah, on no-look passes you know where the player is and can detect his presence, but you don't know exactly which board of the court he is standing on, do you? Peripheral vision is just that...peripheral. It's not recommended to be watching the movement at first base while the pitcher is releasing a ball that gets to the plate in a hurry.