Fair/Foul Two Man Crew Situation (From a Dad)

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by waltjp

And yet, you've never commented on my signature.

I apologize profusely for not noticing it before. I'll meet you at the Four Winds Bar and buy you, Miss Carrie nurse and Susie dear a drink.

[More Cowbell]

Yeah More Cowbell has taken on a life of its own. I've lurked here for some time, and I find your posts, SD Steve, quite interesting. I guess I'm "Anaheim Johnny" to your SDS.

Thanks to all for the input and anecdotes. Keep on educating the uninformed masses. MC

[SanDiegoSteve]

Welcome aboard, Johnny!

[Paul L]

My 2006 BRD, section 488, says in OBR, the umpire may reverse their foul call if everyone concerned ignored his initial signal.

And in NCAA, an erroneous foul call can be reversed either if done so immediately and no player reacted to the foul call or if erroneous call had no impact on the obvious outcome of a safe hit.

Under Fed rules, once foul, foul forever, except on home runs over the fence.

Could someone confirm that the current BRD says the same thing?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Paul L

My 2006 BRD, section 488, says in OBR, the umpire may reverse their foul call if everyone concerned ignored his initial signal.

And in NCAA, an erroneous foul call can be reversed either if done so immediately and no player reacted to the foul call or if erroneous call had no impact on the obvious outcome of a safe hit.

Under Fed rules, once foul, foul forever, except on home runs over the fence.

Could someone confirm that the current BRD says the same thing?

I can confirm that none of the 3 rule sets has changed on this point since 2006.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I can confirm that none of the 3 rule sets has changed on this point since 2006.

Well played.

I will add that NCAA made an rules change to Appendix E on this issue this year.

[DG]

Originally Posted by More Cowbell

Do any of you guys engage in discussion/explanation with (rational) parents after a game if asked to clarify? Or is this a cardinal no-no? I know "rational parent" is somewhat oxymoronic.

I don't mind talking to rational parents with rational questions after a game. They will typically tell others and greater understanding is achieved.

If they are coming at me with a complaint I will give them a direct look in the eye and not speak, and keep walking.

[DonInKansas]

Originally Posted by DG

I don't mind talking to rational parents with rational questions after a game. They will typically tell others and greater understanding is achieved.

Especially if they've got a full cooler with them and are sharing.

[GA Umpire]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Did you show him the rule after the game?

No coach should ever do this or any parent. Only fellow umpires that this umpire KNOWS is an umpire. Otherwise, go to the UIC and let him know so he can explain the rule to the umpire if the umpire is willing to listen to anyone.

Do not approach the umpire with a rule book b/c nothing good may come of it.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by GA Umpire

No coach should ever do this or any parent. Only fellow umpires that this umpire KNOWS is an umpire. Otherwise, go to the UIC and let him know so he can explain the rule to the umpire if the umpire is willing to listen to anyone.

Do not approach the umpire with a rule book b/c nothing good may come of it.

Why not? I can see not doing that during the game, of course, but what is wrong with approaching someone who kicked the living sh*t out of a rule in the game in a nice manner to enlighten them of the rules after the game? Of course you wouldn't do it beligerently and you have to use a bit of tact, but you shouldn't leave that umpire ignorant of a rule so he can go out and ruin the next game he works.

I hear people talk of the "UIC," which sounds like a LL term of which I am pretty unfamiliar. Out here we work in associations, and have no "UIC" to go run and tell. If you don't straighten the umpire out right there on the spot, he is liable to never know that he has misapplied a rule.

[GA Umpire]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Why not? I can see not doing that during the game, of course, but what is wrong with approaching someone who kicked the living sh*t out of a rule in the game in a nice manner to enlighten them of the rules after the game? Of course you wouldn't do it beligerently and you have to use a bit of tact, but you shouldn't leave that umpire ignorant of a rule so he can go out and ruin the next game he works.

I hear people talk of the "UIC," which sounds like a LL term of which I am pretty unfamiliar. Out here we work in associations, and have no "UIC" to go run and tell. If you don't straighten the umpire out right there on the spot, he is liable to never know that he has misapplied a rule.

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmm. I don't know. Maybe this is why. How should I have handled this I think this conversation has been gone through before and nothing good came from it as you can see.

UIC, assignor, or whatever you want to call them. They are the ones to inform so they can inform their umpires. Do not approach an umpire with a rule book in hand even if the game is over. Nothing good may come of it. And, instead of testing to see if this may be the exception, handle it the same way every time and nothing like what happened in the other thread will happen.

Leave to the umpire's assignor(or whoever is in charge) to inform them. Not just some Joe Blow off the street who the umpire has no clue about. B/c that person may not have any clue of what they are talking about. And, like it or not, even if the game is over, approaching the umpire with a rule book is trying to show him up. Only difference now is he can't kick your a$$ out of the game and send you home packing. That is just cowardice at best. Leave it to a Rat(and this applies to anyone trying this same tactic whether it is a parent/player/coach/umpire) to do that.

[DG]

When I was coaching I showed an umpire the rule only once. We were playing a team whose coach was not one of my favorites and his son was pitching. My son broke up a no-hitter in the 5th, but was called out for not reporting, after the other coach complained. I discussed what I thought teh correct rulling should be with the PU and he said "show me". I guess he did not think I had a rule book. After I showed he reversed the out and allowed the hit. The other coach said he would protest. I told him good, go ahead. It cost $50 to lodge a protest in the league and if not upheld the $50 went to the league. I would not have shown the rule book if he had not asked me to.

[GA Umpire]

Originally Posted by DG

When I was coaching I showed an umpire the rule only once. We were playing a team whose coach was not one of my favorites and his son was pitching. My son broke up a no-hitter in the 5th, but was called out for not reporting, after the other coach complained. I discussed what I thought teh correct rulling should be with the PU and he said "show me". I guess he did not think I had a rule book. After I showed he reversed the out and allowed the hit. The other coach said he would protest. I told him good, go ahead. It cost $50 to lodge a protest in the league and if not upheld the $50 went to the league. I would not have shown the rule book if he had not asked me to.

He asked to be shown b/c he didn't know the rule and, apparently, knew he didn't know the rule. If the umpire admits to not knowing it or, in your case, thinks he is being a smarta$$, then that is on him. But, if the umpire does not ask for it, then no one should be offering it before, during, or after the game.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by GA Umpire

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmm. I don't know. Maybe this is why. How should I have handled this I think this conversation has been gone through before and nothing good came from it as you can see.

UIC, assignor, or whatever you want to call them. They are the ones to inform so they can inform their umpires. Do not approach an umpire with a rule book in hand even if the game is over. Nothing good may come of it. And, instead of testing to see if this may be the exception, handle it the same way every time and nothing like what happened in the other thread will happen.

Leave to the umpire's assignor(or whoever is in charge) to inform them. Not just some Joe Blow off the street who the umpire has no clue about. B/c that person may not have any clue of what they are talking about. And, like it or not, even if the game is over, approaching the umpire with a rule book is trying to show him up. Only difference now is he can't kick your a$$ out of the game and send you home packing. That is just cowardice at best. Leave it to a Rat(and this applies to anyone trying this same tactic whether it is a parent/player/coach/umpire) to do that.

Well, first off, I'm no Joe Blow off the street, I am a well-known and long-time respected umpire, and when I give advice to rooks who don't know hay from horse manure, they usually thank me for setting them straight. I don't know as much about umpiring as my assignor, since he has about 60 years of umpiring experience to my 20+, but I'll wager I know at least as much as the majority of assignors out there. I wasn't talking about some yokel off the street, I was talking about a brother umpire clueing in a misguided arbiter.

Secondly, if a coach approaches in a manner that is not confrontational, he could perhaps suggest that the umpire missed a rule, then ask the umpire to pull out his rule book just to double check. I would welcome such a challenge from a coach. I've never had one that knew a rule and I didn't. Lucky I guess.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by GA Umpire

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmm. I don't know. Maybe this is why. How should I have handled this I think this conversation has been gone through before and nothing good came from it as you can see.

I see you have experience with this type of circus. Each side spouting off particular events as they see fit. Each side making up a version of reality to support their desired position. Neither side listening to the other.

Best to let it go on or to avoid it at all costs? I hear what your saying.