Hole in outfield fence at the base of the fence.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Mrumpiresir

I'm curious as to why you put the runner on second base. The fielder duped the umpires into killing the ball when it should have remained live. The OP said the runner was rounding second and heading for third when time was called. I think it would be appropriate to award the runner the bases he would have attained, in the umpires judgement, if time had not been called. No way I'm letting the defense gain an advantage in this scenario.

IF the umpires were duped, then I agree (under FED rules and the CS&FP handbook). IT's not clear to me whether the umpires decided they were duped or that the ball had gone out of play and was then retrieved.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

IF the umpires were duped, then I agree (under FED rules and the CS&FP handbook). IT's not clear to me whether the umpires decided they were duped or that the ball had gone out of play and was then retrieved.

Bob:

We don't think we were duped. The Home-AD told me after the game, that the player raised his hands because the ball went through a hole at the base of the fence thinking that by raising his hands he was telling the umpires that the ball was out of play. He then reached through the ball to retreive the ball thinking that the ball was dead, which we know that while it is dead, it really isn't dead until the BU goes out and inspects the situation. I honestly do not think the player was trying to dupe anybody. We, as an unpiring crew, screwed the pooch on this play.

MTD, Sr.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

He then reached through the ball to retreive the ball thinking that the ball was dead, which we know that while it is dead, it really isn't dead until the BU goes out and inspects the situation. .

It's dead as soon as it goes through the fence. The umpire uses all information available (seeing the ball; seeing the players) to make that decision.

If you weren't duped, then the correct call is a book-rule double.

[waltjp]

If were told during the plate conference that there are spots in the outfield that would allow a ball to pass through or under a fence we make a point of telling the managers that the outfielder should raise his hand so the base ump can go out and check. We also tell the managers that the runners should keep running - we'll reset them if the ball is indeed, out of play. Our final statement is that if the fielder reaches for the ball after raising his hand we're going to judge that the ball is still in play.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by waltjp

If were told during the plate conference that there are spots in the outfield that would allow a ball to pass through or under a fence we make a point of telling the managers that the outfielder should raise his hand so the base ump can go out and check. We also tell the managers that the runners should keep running - we'll reset them if the ball is indeed, out of play. Our final statement is that if the fielder reaches for the ball after raising his hand we're going to judge that the ball is still in play.

And that's all correct mechanics. But that's not in dispute.

I believe that the question in the OP was: what do you do when an umpire (improperly) yells "TIME" after the player reaches through the fence and picks up the ball?

Bob has mentioned the FED rule about "fixing" situations where an umpire's reversed call puts a team at a disadvantage. I am not sure, however, that we can apply that principle here: it's not possible to reverse a call of "TIME." The OP is different from the casebook play where R1 steals, PU calls ball 4 on a check swing, R1 slows down and is tagged, then BU overrules and calls the batter out on strikes. That's a clear case of a reversed call putting one team at a disadvantage.

I was originally in favor of this ruling, but Bob reminded us of the proper phrasing of the relevant principle. Now I think we have to match the OBR ruling: the umpire screwed up by calling "TIME," but that made the ball dead, and runners cannot advance on a dead ball. Runner back to 2B, umpire open wide.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by waltjp

Our final statement is that if the fielder reaches for the ball after raising his hand we're going to judge that the ball is still in play.

The ball is either in play or out of play and that really has nothing to do with whether someone is trying to play it. If I see it go out of play from 300 feet away I don't care if the kid reaches or not, it's out. If I *can't* tell, then we need to get a better look and once I see it out of play or in play I'm going to rule accordingly.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

The ball is either in play or out of play and that really has nothing to do with whether someone is trying to play it. If I see it go out of play from 300 feet away I don't care if the kid reaches or not, it's out. If I *can't* tell, then we need to get a better look and once I see it out of play or in play I'm going to rule accordingly.

Rich, what do you rule when the OF raises his hand to indicate that the ball is out of play and you can't see the ball? As you start out he bends down an picks up the ball and throws it in. In doing so his body shielded you from seeing where the ball was.

All you have now is an OF claiming the ball was out of play but you have no visual evidence to verify that.

Meanwhile, the BR slowed while heading for second base when he saw the OF's arm go up. The BR is eventually thrown out at the plate, or is safe.

Depending on the call one of the managers is coming out to plead his case.

[johnnyg08]

tough...the coaches need to coach their players to round the bases...you make the call, not the outfielders.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by waltjp

Rich, what do you rule when the OF raises his hand to indicate that the ball is out of play and you can't see the ball? As you start out he bends down an picks up the ball and throws it in. In doing so his body shielded you from seeing where the ball was.

All you have now is an OF claiming the ball was out of play but you have no visual evidence to verify that.

Meanwhile, the BR slowed while heading for second base when he saw the OF's arm go up. The BR is eventually thrown out at the plate, or is safe.

Depending on the call one of the managers is coming out to plead his case.

That's the offense's fault. Defensive players try to deke the offense all the time -- and, dpeending on the specific rules set and the specific actions, it's legal.

On the OP, if I didn't see the ball OOP, then I'll assume it was just a deke -- and shame on me (or my crew) for calling time.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

It's dead as soon as it goes through the fence. The umpire uses all information available (seeing the ball; seeing the players) to make that decision.

If you weren't duped, then the correct call is a book-rule double.

Bob:

The point I am trying to make is that we as the umpires never had a chance to rule as to whether the ball was out or not because the player, after raising his hands, apparently reached through the hole in the fence and retrieved the ball. Kids do the darndest things.

MTD, Sr.