Controversy at WBC - USA vs Japan

gsf23 · #1 (**permalink**) Sun Mar 12, 2006, 07:26pm

Top of eighth, runner on third one out, tie game.

Japan batter hits a short fly-ball to left. LF makes the catch and comes up throwing home. Throw not close and Japn takes a one run lead.

USA appeals runner leaving third early. Second base umpire takes the appeal and rules him safe. Buck Martinez ask HP Umpire Bob Davidson to check the call. Davidson calls over the second base umpire, Brian Knight, talks to him and then Davidson rules the runner at third out for leaving early.

Replays show that original call was probably correct, run should have counted.

The rotation on the play was U3 goes out on fly ball, U2 came over and took the tag-up at third.

[Edited by gsf23 on Mar 13th, 2006 at 09:27 AM]

kylejt · #2 (**permalink**) Sun Mar 12, 2006, 07:48pm

"The rotation on the play was U3 goes out on fly ball, U2 came over and took the tag-up at third."

But Buck Martinez was smart enough to the that U2 has the PLAY at third, but not the tag-up. That belongs to the PU. He was also smart enough NOT to go to the guy who made the call, and go directly to the guy who SHOULD have made the call.

A tip 'o the combo hat to Buck. Nice job skipper.

mattmets · #3 (**permalink**) Sun Mar 12, 2006, 10:12pm

Can you appeal an appeal? Serious question here.

kylejt · #4 (**permalink**) Sun Mar 12, 2006, 10:20pm

It's not an appeal, it's a request for help. What Buck did was he went to the PU with two things. First, that's not U2s call to make on the appeal, he shouldn't have answered it. Plus, the PU had a far better angle on it, could he help out on the call. Now the second request should have gone to U2, but the chance of U2 admitting it wasn't his call in the first place would be remote. Buck played the odds, and won. Pretty smart for a manager to know umpire rotations.

SanDiegoSteve · #5 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 13, 2006, 01:30am

Not to hijack the thread, but what is the deal with the plate umpires wearing adjustable hats? It looks absolutely horrific!! You would think Selig or somebody could have sprung for some decent gear, including fitted hats for the umpires. The teams all have them, so why shouldn't the umpires?

And those god-awful ugly field jackets......

SanDiegoSteve · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 13, 2006, 01:33am

Quote:

Originally posted by gsf23
Buck Martinez ask HP Umpire Bruce Davidson to check the call.

Actually, the umpire was Balk-a-day Bob Davidson.

BigUmp56 · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 13, 2006, 03:33am

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the yellow numbers on the sleeves or the black ball bags with navy shirts. What's the WBC stand for? "We're Broke Constantly."

This is what Davidson had to say after the game about the play.

"It's a tag-up situation," Davidson said in a postgame statement. "In a bases-loaded situation, our mechanics [are] that it's the [home plate umpire who] lines up the tag. Brian Knight hustled over to third, where he's supposed to be, but he doesn't have the tag-up call. It's the plate umpire's call.

"I had it lined up. The wrong umpire made the initial call. It's the plate umpire, which is me, and I had him leaving early and called him out."

Tim.

[Edited by BigUmp56 on Mar 13th, 2006 at 04:39 AM]

JugglingReferee · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 13, 2006, 06:38am

Does anyone know what Japanese sports websites say about the play?

Edit: Just saw the re-play. Looked to me like the runner tagged properly.

Dan_ref · #9 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 13, 2006, 12:42pm

Quote:

Originally posted by JugglingReferee
Does anyone know what Japanese sports websites say about the play?

Edit: Just saw the re-play. Looked to me like the runner tagged properly.

I think they say "Whatta rotta clap."

Reminds me a bit of the '72 Olympic basketball championship game.

Sal Giaco · #10 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 13, 2006, 12:55pm

Personally, Brian Knight screwed up the appeal responsibility (it was Davidson's call). However, Knight got the call right (originally ruling the runner tagged properly). The replays clearly show that the runner did not leave early so I'm confused as to why Davidson over ruled Knight.

Moreover, seeing that Knight already made the call and was in decent position, all Davidson had to due is tell Buck Martinez something like ...

"Buck, you are right, the tag up was NOT Knight's call - technically it is my call to make. However, I agreed with the original call that the runner did NOT leave early so I'm not going to change the call."

Knight got the mechanic wrong but the call RIGHT. Davidson got the mechanic right but got the call WRONG. To avoid a sh!t house, Davidson should have just stayed with the original call and had Knight buy him a couple "pops" after the game for stepping on his di@K. Just my opinion

MrB · #11 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 13, 2006, 01:12pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Sal Giaco
Personally, Brian Knight screwed up the appeal responsibility (it was Davidson's call). However, Knight got the call right (originally ruling the runner tagged properly). The replays clearly show that the runner did not leave early so I'm confused as to why Davidson over ruled Knight.

Moreover, seeing that Knight already made the call and was in decent position, all Davidson had to due is tell Buck Martinez something like ...

"Buck, you are right, the tag up was NOT Knight's call - technically it is my call to make. However, I agreed with the original call that the runner did NOT leave early so I'm not going to change the call."

Knight got the mechanic wrong but the call RIGHT. Davidson got the mechanic right but got the call WRONG. To avoid a sh!t house, Davidson should have just stayed with the original call and had Knight buy him a couple "pops" after the game for stepping on his di@K. Just my opinion

I didn't see it, but I don't think that BK messed up at all. He was in position and he got the call right from what you guys have said. It was Davidson's call and when he saw the appeal he didn't step up and make it, so BK probably did. I don't think BK ran over to third and said, let me, let me. Davidson didn't step up so BK did. The question shouldn't be why he made the call, it should be why didn't Bob?

Sal Giaco · #12 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 13, 2006, 01:24pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Chris_Hickman
When I work and I have a tag-up @3rd, I go 1st base extended 10-15 feet back to get a good look. When I saw it on tv, Bob was 3rd extended, standing near the plate.
I dont think that is a good "look".

DITTO right back to you Chris. Davidson actually was hands on knee set (why? I don't know) waiting for the play in the dirt area in front of home plate. I agree with you that he should have been first base line extended to line up the fly ball to left field and then been coming into the play after the ball is released and the runner is coming home.

It's one thing to screw up a mechanic because 9 times out of 10, no one else knows it except for us (umpires). But when you reverse a call that was correct to begin with, AFTER the manager "talks" you into it, really makes UMPIRES look bad.

PeteBooth · #13 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 13, 2006, 01:39pm

Originally posted by gsf23

Replays show that original call was probably correct, run should have counted.

The rotation on the play was U3 goes out on fly ball, U2 came over and took the tag-up at third.

Below is the Link to the WBC website where you can view for yourselves.

What does ths play show?

Not to start another thread, but here we had 2 umpires making different calls. Sound Familiar Remember the HUGE debates on over-turning your partner? Whose to say another umpire had a better view of the play than you did.

Personally if R3 did leave early it was by milli-seconds. A Horrible call for a PROFESSIONAL Umpire. Can you imagine if this had been in the World Series.

Bottom Line: Make your OWN calls and Do not STEP in as U2 did when the call IS NOT Yours. Also, for the thread about multiple umpires watching the ball. Here we had 2 umpires watching the ball but obviously saw things differently.

Pete Booth

http://www.worldbaseballclassic.com/...ex.jsp?sid=wbc

LMan · #14 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 13, 2006, 01:50pm

Yes, have to say that PU strung up his U2 there, don't know why.

My first season, one time I got confused behind the plate and asked for help on a checkswing after I had called it a strike (oops).....my partner in A looked askance at me, but he had my back by agreeing with my call (LOL). Just a topic for the post-game, nothing more.

Likewise, Davidson could have said, "Skip, you are correct, its not his call, its mine, but while we are on that topic my call agrees with his."

End of story, and U2's 'jurisdiction' error stays with the umps and Buck Martinez. Instead, Davidson oven-roasts Knight for the 'world' to see.....

Knight should be one angry mofo about now. Yes, he goofed, but it doesn't look like a 'gross miss' that HAD to be 'overturned'

Sal Giaco · #15 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 13, 2006, 01:53pm

Quote:

Originally posted by PeteBooth

Bottom Line: Make your OWN calls and Do not STEP in as U2 did when the call IS NOT Yours...

Pete,
You're right, U2 (Knight) messed up and stepped in when he shouldn't have. But why make matter's worse and overturn the call? Now instead of a blown mechanic and little, if any controversy, you have a blown mechanic AND and blown call AND a whole lot of controversy.

It's hard enought as umpires to fight public perception and scrutiny, but Davidson basically cut his own throat and made it worse for everyone.