Runner slides past bag

[David Emerling]

Play: R1 and R3, 2 outs. Grounder to F5. He elects to force out R1 at 2nd. His throw pulls F4 off the bag to the left-field side as R1 slides past the bag without touching it. F4 then tags R1 as he attempts to scramble back to the bag. Before the tag, R3 has crossed the plate.

Does R3's run count?

Does the axiom, "a base passed is a base touch" apply here?

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[mbyron]

As you've described the play, I've got a tag on a runner off his base. That's time play, and the run scores.

If the fielder turns around after the play and says, "he missed the base!" or something else that makes this an appeal play, then I've got a missed base appeal on a force play, and the run does not score.

As you know, appeals must be unmistakable. As you've described the play, it is not an appeal. I would give the defense until they leave the field to make the appeal.

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by mbyron

As you've described the play, I've got a tag on a runner off his base. That's time play, and the run scores.

If the fielder turns around after the play and says, "he missed the base!" or something else that makes this an appeal play, then I've got a missed base appeal on a force play, and the run does not score.

As you know, appeals must be unmistakable. As you've described the play, it is not an appeal. I would give the defense until they leave the field to make the appeal.

Oddly, I found almost this exact play in my 2006 edition of BRD. It says, in FED, such a tag is still considered a force out. So, the run would not score. Under OBR or NCAA, it would be exactly as you described.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

Oddly, I found almost this exact play in my 2006 edition of BRD. It says, in FED, such a tag is still considered a force out. So, the run would not score. Under OBR or NCAA, it would be exactly as you described.

That ruling might be based on the now obsolete FED concept of an "accidental appeal." Since the current principle is that appeals must be unmistakable, I would apply the ruling at all levels.

[BretMan]

What is the section number for the 2006 BRD interpretation offered above?

The reason I ask is that sometimes this helpful publication can be kind of tricky to navigate if you don't know just what you're looking for. I couldn't find this in my 2008 edition.

Also, one of the sections noted as "removed" in 2008 had something to do with "reinstating a force out" and I'm wondering if that's the one you're referencing.

[johnnyg08]

I only have the 2008 BRD as well....if it helps, I'm pretty sure there's a case play in the MLBUM that I can look up if you're interested...but w/o looking it up, I'm pretty sure a missed base is considered a touched base from an appeal standpoint..

[johnnyg08]

2008 BRD p 19. tag play unless the runner touches a succeeding base. (FED) The NCAA interp surprises me a bit though

[greymule]

The website that sells the J/R includes this question in a quiz. Their answer is that the run scores, and no appeal is allowed. I'll see whether I can find it to post.

Here it is:

R3, R1, two outs. Ground ball up the middle, just past the pitcher's right side. The shortstop gloves the ball in front of second base and attempts to tag the sliding R1 instead of tagging the base. The tag is missed, but R1 slides past the base without touching it. As R1 scrambles back to the base, the shortstop tags him before he is able to return. R3 scored before the tag was applied for the third out (a 'time play'). The defense appeals that R1 missed second base, hoping to get a force out-an 'advantageous fourth out' - to negate the run.

a. The appeal is upheld; R1 is out and the run cannot score since the third out is now a force out.
b. The appeal is not allowed, the run scores.
c. The umpire should simply call R1 out for being out of the baseline, thus avoiding this whole mess.

The correct answer is "b" (the appeal is not allowed, the run scores), at least according to how professional umpires are likely to officiate this play. In theory, Jaksa and Roder agree with answer "a" (the appeal is upheld; R1 is out and the run cannot score since the third out is a force out), but felt it necessary to write the rule as it is likely to be enforced on the field, as in answer "b." The problem lies in the fact that the Official Rules do not specifically define what constitutes an appeal. As our quiz question shows, when appeals meet force plays, the rules are especially inadequate.

The above of course applies to OBR. Remember that in Fed, it was actually "accidental force play," even though it was commonly called "accidental appeal." A BR who had hit a triple and missed 2B was not out if F4 had the ball and, without appealing, tripped over 2B before throwing the ball to F1. But if the BR had missed 1B (yes, I know it's not officially a force, but it applied in Fed), then an accidental touch of the base would have resulted in an out.

[johnnyg08]

are you guys sure that the accidental appeal still applies to FED?

[johnnyg08]

Regarding FED, I have a situation in the "Rules by Topic" book on page 85 (8.2.2 Sitch E)

The runner misses 2B and, with the ball still in play, attempts to return and touch 2B. The defense simply announces that he missed the base. RULING: Since the runner has initiated action to return, the defense must tag him unless it is a force play, in which case all they would need to do is touch the base with the ball.

In reading this...if the 3rd out of the inning is a force play, no run scores. In FED, this is not a time play. That ruling does not make sense to me...but that is how it reads for FED...I hope others chime in here with citations and/or case plays.

BRD also states that NCAA and OBR could have an advantageous 4th out opportunity here...BRD play 13-10

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

In reading this...if the 3rd out of the inning is a force play, no run scores. In FED, this is not a time play. That ruling does not make sense to me...but that is how it reads for FED...I hope others chime in here with citations and/or case plays.

A runner who passes a base without touching it has acquired the base. That means the force is off for that runner. If a run scores before he is tagged off the base, it's a time play and the run counts.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by greymule

Remember that in Fed, it was actually "accidental force play," even though it was commonly called "accidental appeal." A BR who had hit a triple and missed 2B was not out if F4 had the ball and, without appealing, tripped over 2B before throwing the ball to F1. But if the BR had missed 1B (yes, I know it's not officially a force, but it applied in Fed), then an accidental touch of the base would have resulted in an out.

The "accidental appeal" was abandoned by FED several years ago. Case 8.2.3 is still in the case book, but it is wrong by rule (and FED has issued e-mail instructions to ignore it).

[greymule]

I haven't done Fed since 2002. How does Fed now handle the play where the BR beats the throw to 1B but misses the bag? It is treated the way OBR treats it (i.e., runner is called safe but is liable to be out on appeal)?

The call used to be "out" on the theory that the BR had not yet touched the base, and the "accidental force play" stemmed from that principle.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by greymule

I haven't done Fed since 2002. How does Fed now handle the play where the BR beats the throw to 1B but misses the bag? It is treated the way OBR treats it (i.e., runner is called safe but is liable to be out on appeal)?

Yes.

[LittleLeagueBob]

Originally Posted by mbyron

A runner who passes a base without touching it has acquired the base. That means the force is off for that runner. If a run scores before he is tagged off the base, it's a time play and the run counts.

I don't like it, but it looks like FED still considers it a force play -- 2-29-3

ART. 3 . . . A force play is a play in which a runner (or two or three runners) loses his right to the base he occupies and is forced to advance because the batter becomes a batter-runner. For a given runner, a force play ends as soon as he touches the next base or a following runner is put out at a previous base. When a runner advances beyond a base to which he is forced without touching it, the force play remains.