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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 13, 2009, 07:16pm
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Asking for Help

2 man crew in a game I watched tonight.

R1

RHP picks off R1 but the base umpire calls him safe because he can't see that the runner's hand is not on the base. F3 dropped straight down with the knee and prevented the runner from touching the base.

I could see it because I was looking straight down the first base line so I assume the HP umpire could as well.

I completely understand how the field up didn't see it.

However, what would prevent that umpire from asking the home plate ump if the runner touched the base?
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 13, 2009, 07:22pm
Stop staring at me swan.
 
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if he thought he say everything he needed to see he would not ask for help. sometimes we see things like this that our partners do not see...this is an example where we wouldn't intervene in the play. That's baseball.
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Last edited by johnnyg08; Mon Apr 13, 2009 at 08:35pm.
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Old Mon Apr 13, 2009, 08:44pm
DG DG is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spence View Post
F3 dropped straight down with the knee and prevented the runner from touching the base.
Likely obstruction if you were working a FED game. He can't drop a knee without possession of the ball. But if he don't call that either... so be it.
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Old Mon Apr 13, 2009, 08:45pm
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if he allows some access to the base he can drop his knee can't he?
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Old Mon Apr 13, 2009, 08:52pm
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I don't have a problem asking for help however, on this play the Base ump is closer than the Plate ump. To try and be that finite by asking someone further away than you for help, well the perception just makes you both look bad. I know I wouldn't be asking for help on this.

Yea I know, the purists say the most important thing is to always get it right. I say as right as possible.
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Old Mon Apr 13, 2009, 08:58pm
Stop staring at me swan.
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jicecone View Post
I don't have a problem asking for help however, on this play the Base ump is closer than the Plate ump. To try and be that finite by asking someone further away than you for help, well the perception just makes you both look bad. I know I wouldn't be asking for help on this.

Yea I know, the purists say the most important thing is to always get it right. I say as right as possible.
great point...esp on a play of this nature...
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Old Mon Apr 13, 2009, 09:32pm
DG DG is offline
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Originally Posted by johnnyg08 View Post
if he allows some access to the base he can drop his knee can't he?
I just reading literally here.. "dropped straight down with the knee and prevented the runner". If he dropped a knee and gave him some of the bag then no obsruction. You are the judge as to how much is some. I generally go with half that the runner can use.
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Old Mon Apr 13, 2009, 09:55pm
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Let me clear up some items.

The field ump was on the 3rd base side of the mound so he wasn't much closer than the HP ump. In addition F3 was between him and R1 when he made the tag.

F3 didn't drop his knee until after catching the ball.

I realize the FU saw what he saw. However, if the coach disagrees and approaches it the right way would it be unusual for the field ump to ask the HP ump for help?
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Old Mon Apr 13, 2009, 10:01pm
DG DG is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spence View Post
Let me clear up some items.

The field ump was on the 3rd base side of the mound so he wasn't much closer than the HP ump. In addition F3 was between him and R1 when he made the tag.

F3 didn't drop his knee until after catching the ball.

I realize the FU saw what he saw. However, if the coach disagrees and approaches it the right way would it be unusual for the field ump to ask the HP ump for help?
With F1 only BU should be in B, not C. And yes, it would be very highly unusual for BU to ask for help from PU. Like never...
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Old Tue Apr 14, 2009, 07:21am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spence View Post
I realize the FU saw what he saw. However, if the coach disagrees and approaches it the right way would it be unusual for the field ump to ask the HP ump for help?
Yes, it would be unusual to get help on this play.
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Old Mon Apr 13, 2009, 11:48pm
ODJ ODJ is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DG View Post
I just reading literally here.. "dropped straight down with the knee and prevented the runner". If he dropped a knee and gave him some of the bag then no obsruction. You are the judge as to how much is some. I generally go with half that the runner can use.
What if F3 is blocking the part of the base R1 wanted to touch for his return to the base?
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Old Tue Apr 14, 2009, 12:11am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ODJ View Post
What if F3 is blocking the part of the base R1 wanted to touch for his return to the base?
From this year's clinic:

"The fielder must give the runner access to a portion of the edge of the base facing the runner."

Forcing the runner to reach around and touch the edge of the base farthest from the runner is not providing access.
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Old Tue Apr 14, 2009, 05:44am
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Originally Posted by ODJ View Post
What if F3 is blocking the part of the base R1 wanted to touch for his return to the base?
The "access" that the fielder must grant need NOT be what the runner "wants." Any "access" will do.

The rule imposes a burden on the defense, but it's not intended to be an unreasonable burden. How should the fielder know what the runner "wants?"
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Old Tue Apr 14, 2009, 09:44pm
DG DG is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ODJ View Post
What if F3 is blocking the part of the base R1 wanted to touch for his return to the base?
Obstruction.
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  #15 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 14, 2009, 10:42am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spence View Post
2 man crew in a game I watched tonight.

R1

RHP picks off R1 but the base umpire calls him safe because he can't see that the runner's hand is not on the base. F3 dropped straight down with the knee and prevented the runner from touching the base.

I could see it because I was looking straight down the first base line so I assume the HP umpire could as well.

I completely understand how the field up didn't see it.

However, what would prevent that umpire from asking the home plate ump if the runner touched the base?
I'll offer this answer and honestly I am surprised that noone has yet. As a PU I see less than 1% of plays at first on a pick-off, and when I do see them I see them very late. The reason is as a PU I am watching the pitcher for balk and if I turn to see the pick-off I will miss a balk. Umpire school and many clinics teach the PU to not turn to see the play, but watch the pitcher for balk, and if asked I would probably tell a coach, "I would ask my partner for help if I could, but I know he wasn't watching the play he was looking for a balk." After all, they are the ones that are always trying to teach us mechanic; you know, like where we should be and who should make what call.
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