What would you call?

[Kevin Finnerty]

Originally Posted by DG

I can see you excel at misdirection. Both umpires have responsibility for proper application of the rules.

You have "what's the situation" signals and now "I have something for you" signals, but will apparently NOT call time and have a discussion with your partner about a potential rules mis-application.

If I pooch a rule (not likely) you will not tell me during the game, unless I ask, which I will not because I don't know I pooched. And the coaches don't know so there is no justice and we, the team, did not do our jobs.

If I pooch a rule I would rather you throw me under the bus and I will learn from the experience, and I will be happy to throw you under too and maybe you will learn too, or not.

Wow! You took the time to write all that down and then post it where other umpires would read it? And you're serious? Even about that last part?

Whatever.

[TwoBits]

A few answers from me, the OP:

This was a 14 & under USSSA "AA" game. Its not exactly the place you would put a rookie, but we've got a lot of new faces umpiring around the ball park. Some new guys are coming in to make a little extra money, some seasoned veterans not umpiring because they are working extra hours on the weekends in their regular jobs (gotta love this economy, don't you?)

I was plate umpire, my partner on bases. Defensive coach came to me first, and I directed him to my partner since it was his call. I was prepared to accept whatever judgment ruling he had unless he asked for help. However, when he loudly proclaimed that the runner has a right to the base path, I felt the need to step in in a private conversation with him while the coach attended to his injured player.

Had this been a veteran that I'm used to working with, then the situation would never have happened because the proper rule would have been applied. However, with a rookie umpire, an injured player, a rule misapplication, and an upset coach, I felt the need to offer my opinion to ward of a potentially volotile situation.

[bob jenkins]

IMO -- if it's a rules issue, I step in (and want my partner(s) to come to me).

The NCAA book lists other situations where an umpire can step in, even on judgment calls.

[johnnyg08]

I don't know...I think you are a crew out there...a team if you will. Safe/Out is a bit different from a rule application...if I see safe, and my partner saw out, (assuming the ball isn't on the ground and I didn't see it), then we live with those calls...sometimes we miss them, sometimes we get them right. If my partner misses a rule, that makes the crew look bad and it could make your assocation look bad. If your partner gets the count wrong, gets the outs wrong, misapplies a rule, I feel that it's my duty as a partner and my partner's duty to let me know as opposed to letting me look like a donkey on something that easily correctable. Work one-man if you don't want to work as a team and hang your partner out to dry.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

I don't know...I think you are a crew out there...a team if you will. Safe/Out is a bit different from a rule application...if I see safe, and my partner saw out, (assuming the ball isn't on the ground and I didn't see it), then we live with those calls...sometimes we miss them, sometimes we get them right. If my partner misses a rule, that makes the crew look bad and it could make your assocation look bad. If your partner gets the count wrong, gets the outs wrong, misapplies a rule, I feel that it's my duty as a partner and my partner's duty to let me know as opposed to letting me look like a donkey on something that easily correctable. Work one-man if you don't want to work as a team and hang your partner out to dry.

By sticking your nose in your partner's business, you undermine his authority. You've just told everyone watching or participating in that game that he is not as competent as you are, and that will hamper his ability to umpire, at a minimum, for that game, and depending on word of mouth, for a longer period.

I had this happen to me--as BU, I had a clear balk that my "partner" couldn't see. Because the defense didn't like it, he chose to question my call of his own volition. The next two balk calls (one was a non-call) were much more controversial as a direct result of that, resulting in an ejection that would never have happened if my "partner" had kept his mouth shut.

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by Matt

By sticking your nose in your partner's business, you undermine his authority. You've just told everyone watching or participating in that game that he is not as competent as you are, and that will hamper his ability to umpire, at a minimum, for that game, and depending on word of mouth, for a longer period.

I had this happen to me--as BU, I had a clear balk that my "partner" couldn't see. Because the defense didn't like it, he chose to question my call of his own volition. The next two balk calls (one was a non-call) were much more controversial as a direct result of that, resulting in an ejection that would never have happened if my "partner" had kept his mouth shut.

In the case you present, I would agree with you...questioning your balk call would be undermining your authority. I think there are ways to discuss certain plays in baseball where you are working as a team w/o undermining one's authority.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

IMO -- if it's a rules issue, I step in (and want my partner(s) to come to me).

But how do you know if it's a rules issue? What if your partner knows the rule, but has adjudged the facts differently than you?

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by Matt

But how do you know if it's a rules issue? What if your partner knows the rule, but has adjudged the facts differently than you?

R2 and R1. I am PU, 3 balls on batter. F1 pitches and BU calls "that's a balk". I call the pitch a ball. BU then calls time and starts awarding bases. I was 99% sure he called a balk for not stopping. So I ask "are you calling a no stop balk?" He says yes so I say well the pitch was ball 4, batter and all other runners are advancing so we'll ignore the balk. He agreed and all was well. It was possible he was calling a balk for something before the pitch so I just had to ask. It wasn't a big deal at all.

[kylejt]

There's a proper procedure for getting calls right. It involves the manager either requesting help, or protesting the ruling. Failure to follow the proper protocol will, eventually, lead to chaos.

I work with rookie umpires (and managers) all the time. And yes, I'll let them blow rule interpretations, even though I'm 60' away. No problem. I'll put the blame squarely on the manager, if he doesn't hold up his end of the job.

But I do mostly LL, and I'm there to help EVERYONE get better. If a manager wants to do it the right way, great. If not, I'll school him(if he's open to it) after the game, and everyone gets a little smarter for it.

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by kylejt

There's a proper procedure for getting calls right. It involves the manager either requesting help, or protesting the ruling. Failure to follow the proper protocol will, eventually, lead to chaos.

I work with rookie umpires (and managers) all the time. And yes, I'll let them blow rule interpretations, even though I'm 60' away. No problem. I'll put the blame squarely on the manager, if he doesn't hold up his end of the job.

But I do mostly LL, and I'm there to help EVERYONE get better. If a manager wants to do it the right way, great. If not, I'll school him(if he's open to it) after the game, and everyone gets a little smarter for it.

One of our jobs as umpires is acting as arbiters of the rules. If there is a misapplication of the rules, and I am certain about it, I will get together with my partner and enforce accordingly. He will still learn what he did wrong. By letting your partner "eat" his interpretation, it opens it up if it happens again in the same game, maybe to the other team. Maybe the other coach will know the rule and point it out. He points it out and you correct it. Now, the whole crew has lost credibility. Credibility can still be lost if you let the rule infraction go against one team and the other team knows it. If a rule is misapplied, and you know it, fix it immediately.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by LDUB

R2 and R1. I am PU, 3 balls on batter. F1 pitches and BU calls "that's a balk". I call the pitch a ball. BU then calls time and starts awarding bases. I was 99% sure he called a balk for not stopping. So I ask "are you calling a no stop balk?" He says yes so I say well the pitch was ball 4, batter and all other runners are advancing so we'll ignore the balk. He agreed and all was well. It was possible he was calling a balk for something before the pitch so I just had to ask. It wasn't a big deal at all.

But you were asking for clarification, not interjecting what you saw, so that you could both properly enforce the rules.

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by LDUB

R2 and R1. I am PU, 3 balls on batter. F1 pitches and BU calls "that's a balk". I call the pitch a ball. BU then calls time and starts awarding bases. I was 99% sure he called a balk for not stopping. So I ask "are you calling a no stop balk?" He says yes so I say well the pitch was ball 4, batter and all other runners are advancing so we'll ignore the balk. He agreed and all was well. It was possible he was calling a balk for something before the pitch so I just had to ask. It wasn't a big deal at all.

What other balk call would make a difference in this situation? I'm focused on FED so OBR has gone to the back of my brain.

[DG]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

IMO -- if it's a rules issue, I step in (and want my partner(s) to come to me).

The NCAA book lists other situations where an umpire can step in, even on judgment calls.

Thank you. I have been trying to make this point unsuccessfully. You simplified greatly. This is the way it should be and it should not be considered throwing your partner under the bus. I'm through with this post because some are just not listening.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by DG

Thank you. I have been trying to make this point unsuccessfully. You simplified greatly. This is the way it should be and it should not be considered throwing your partner under the bus. I'm through with this post because some are just not listening.

A few years back, a famous, beloved local umpire was working the plate. I had worked many games with him over the years. One night, working a Pony game under the lights, I called a balk on a pitcher for throwing to F3 who was playing 15 feet off the base and was not even close to having a play on R1, who was only a few feet off the base. The pitcher thought F3 was holding the runner. My partner came out and made a big spectacle of overruling me. He said he'd never heard of such a rule. I stood my ground, and did not back off my call. He told me that I was responsible if there was a protest and I said "fine with me." I brought the play up at the next association meeting and was vindicated. He then grudgingly admitted that I had gotten the call right.

That was throwing me under the bus for making a correct call.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

My partner came out and made a big spectacle of overruling me.

That's the part that's "throwing you under the bus."

In both situations (the OP "interference" and your "balk"), PU should approach BU, say privately, "what do you have?" (or, more probably, "whatchya got?") and go from there to discuss the rules.

That way, if PU has the right rule, but BU has seem something to make the rule not apply, the original call can stand.