When to call Time on an injury (FED)

[mbyron]

Here's how I think of this question. Suppose you let play continue. How long will that take? 10 seconds? Can't the average batter runner get around the bases (4x90 feet = 360 feet = 120 yards) in less than 15 seconds? That's not much time.

So now ask yourself: in what kinds of cases will 10 or 15 seconds make a difference? That's the only difference between stopping play immediately and letting play continue.

One answer has already been given: if the injured player is at risk of further injury, then kill it.

If the injured player is unconscious, has stopped breathing, or is bleeding from the ears (serious head injury), then 10-20 seconds can make a difference. If the injured player is cut so badly that you see arterial spray, then you also need to stop play. These injuries are quite rare, but if you happen to see you address it immediately.

Some guys add a compound fracture (bone sticking through skin), which is kind of a gross injury and has additional risk of shock. It's not, however, life threatening, and 10 seconds will not make a difference -- it doesn't meet my test.

Otherwise, let play continue. If a coach complains, tell him that you saw the injury, that by rule we play on, and that the 10 seconds needed to do so didn't make a difference to the injured player's condition. Heck, the first 10 seconds they stand around an injured player and ask where it hurts.

[CajunNewBlue]

Sorry to disagree with the OP's umpire... but this is MC and is referenced in the casebook almost verbatim. if this was a high school level game (i know some younger groups play by FED also) but, if it was high school... they darn well know better what part of the base to step on. If the runner wasn't bumped into F3 or stumbled, then ran over his foot... I'm calling MC.

[Kevin Finnerty]

Originally Posted by CajunNewBlue

Sorry to disagree with the OP's umpire... but this is MC and is referenced in the casebook almost verbatim. if this was a high school level game (i know some younger groups play by FED also) but, if it was high school... they darn well know better what part of the base to step on. If the runner wasn't bumped into F3 or stumbled, then ran over his foot... I'm calling MC.

Me too. That play is as chickens--t as it gets.

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by CajunNewBlue

Sorry to disagree with the OP's umpire... but this is MC and is referenced in the casebook almost verbatim. if this was a high school level game (i know some younger groups play by FED also) but, if it was high school... they darn well know better what part of the base to step on. If the runner wasn't bumped into F3 or stumbled, then ran over his foot... I'm calling MC.

I'm not disagreeing with the conclusion but where in the casebook does it cite that unintentionally stepping on the foot/ankle of the fielder is MC?

-Josh

[Kevin Finnerty]

He's saying that it is almost always intentional and probably in this instance as well, and that he, like many of us, take a dim view of that particular stunt because it's cowardly and bush--especially if the first baseman is giving you a clear shot at the bag. If it's your judgment that it was unintentional, then fine; but if it's done, I am virtually always going to discern intent.

[CajunNewBlue]

Originally Posted by jdmara

I'm not disagreeing with the conclusion but where in the casebook does it cite that unintentionally stepping on the foot/ankle of the fielder is MC?

-Josh

I am currently looking for it in the current one.... I know ive read it in one of the following... 2009 baseball rules or caseplays... 2008 baseball rules or caseplays or rules by topic. but perhaps i pulled this one out of my butt from the FED or NCAA softball rules (i know its baseball, but dang, if its MC for the girls im calling it for the boys). its in one of them.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by CajunNewBlue

I am currently looking for it in the current one.... I know ive read it in one of the following... 2009 baseball rules or caseplays... 2008 baseball rules or caseplays or rules by topic. but perhaps i pulled this one out of my butt from the FED or NCAA softball rules (i know its baseball, but dang, if its MC for the girls im calling it for the boys). its in one of them.

Malicious contact requires excessive force and/or intent to injure - any maybe avoidable contact. Too many people are judging any contact as malicious.

[CajunNewBlue]

hrmmm.... hard to not say "intentional" when practice after practice they are taught/instructed to run and touch the bag.... then they don't put into play what they practice... i judge that as intentional. ie: they know to run and touch the bag and chose NOT to do that....if he had stumbled, or had been bumped or had pressure from a foul side throw.. maybe not intentional..... but, that's just me.

[johnnyg08]

I saw it one time two years ago and one time last year. I have gotten to the point where I am considering ejecting the next player at the high school varsity level and above because the more I think about it, I was pretty fast back in the day and attempted bunt singles many, many times and not one time did I ever come near F3's foot. I guess I'm having a hard time seeing it as accidental upon further review.

[johnnyg08]

I skimmed through the case book and the 2009 Rules by Topic and didn't see this rule...but I did skim through the books...

[SAump]

Some teams think the bag is in the base path and the runner is entitled to run through the bag. I saw the same batter run into F3 on two seperate occasions. The first time, he successfully manages to seperate F3 from the ball. The second time, he was out. I couldn't read intent, but I warned him to avoid contact with the fielder. His coach thought I shouldn't have said anything about it.

[SAump]

I then called Time and told runners to return to 2B & 3B and allowed the HC to attend to F3. Prior to returning to game play the Offensive HC wanted an explanation of why I called Time and did not let runs score (he was ‘loosing’ by a lot of runs).

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Malicious contact requires excessive force and/or intent to injure - any maybe avoidable contact. Too many people are judging any contact as malicious.

Can or should this contact between F3 and B/R be considered interference, if not malicious contact? No runs would have scored in a 2 out situation as a result of the 3rd out made at 1B. The judgment made to determine interference is based on whether or not other baserunners would have chosen to advance had F3 not fallen to the ground, and for no other cause. Interference in this situation would also immediately kill the play and not require an "injury" time out. The closest rules I could find relate to 5.1.1.e {et al.}.

[Kevin Finnerty]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Malicious contact requires excessive force and/or intent to injure - any maybe avoidable contact. Too many people are judging any contact as malicious.

Going on the fair side of the bag for no apparent reason is a malicious act. And I like to let guys play the game. But that's the kind of chickens--t bush move that must result in an ejection for more than one key reason, including preventing a retaliatory act.

I am not looking for ejections, but that would be one of them.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Here's how I think of this question. Suppose you let play continue. How long will that take? 10 seconds? Can't the average batter runner get around the bases (4x90 feet = 360 feet = 120 yards) in less than 15 seconds? That's not much time.

So now ask yourself: in what kinds of cases will 10 or 15 seconds make a difference? That's the only difference between stopping play immediately and letting play continue.

One answer has already been given: if the injured player is at risk of further injury, then kill it.

If the injured player is unconscious, has stopped breathing, or is bleeding from the ears (serious head injury), then 10-20 seconds can make a difference. If the injured player is cut so badly that you see arterial spray, then you also need to stop play. These injuries are quite rare, but if you happen to see you address it immediately.

Some guys add a compound fracture (bone sticking through skin), which is kind of a gross injury and has additional risk of shock. It's not, however, life threatening, and 10 seconds will not make a difference -- it doesn't meet my test.

Otherwise, let play continue. If a coach complains, tell him that you saw the injury, that by rule we play on, and that the 10 seconds needed to do so didn't make a difference to the injured player's condition. Heck, the first 10 seconds they stand around an injured player and ask where it hurts.

Do I read this that F3 had the ball when he called time? If so, continued play would have either involved F3 playing on the ankle or someone on the team running at F3 at velocity to get the ball. I don't think your 10 second rule is really looking at this correctly.
________
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[mbyron]

Originally Posted by youngump

Do I read this that F3 had the ball when he called time? If so, continued play would have either involved F3 playing on the ankle or someone on the team running at F3 at velocity to get the ball. I don't think your 10 second rule is really looking at this correctly.

My comment was not directly about the OP. And if runners are moving between bases, I will not be granting time to F3 when he falls to the ground.

10-15 seconds is the time it would take for the last runner to run all the way around the diamond. The defense running around is irrelevant. My point was that I will not stop play unless that 10-15 seconds would make a difference to saving the injured player's life.