Asking BU on a Check Swing

[njdevs00cup]

Hypothetical: FED rules. No one on, BU in A. Batter checks his swing on a 3 - 2 pitch. PU calls ball four and the ball goes to the backstop. Batter sprints out of the batter's box and the defense wants an appeal. Catcher picks up the ball and throws to first. At what point does the PU ask the BU, right away or at the conclusion of the play?

The reason I ask is because if the PU goes to the BU right away and he has a strike, he is answering the PU and making a call on a throw to 1B. If the PU waits, and the batter continues to sprint to 1B, he can be tagged out if the BU agrees the pitch was a ball and the batter/runner over runs 1B.

[TussAgee11]

On this situation, appeal IMMEDIATELY. You do not need to wait for somebody to ask.

This will eliminate all the problems described in your OP.

[Kevin Finnerty]

The best umpire in our unit a couple of years back had this exact thing happen--and he discussed it with his partner in the pregame! (I was there because my son was in the game.)

Second inning; 3-2 count; checked swing; wild pitch; PU says "Ball four, DID HE GO?" He did it immediately, like Tuss said.

It gave the BR a chance to go more quickly to first to beat the throw on the K, which it was.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

On this situation, appeal IMMEDIATELY. You do not need to wait for somebody to ask.

This will eliminate all the problems described in your OP.

Must the base ump wait for PU to ask or may BU independently, ring up the B/R from A?

[bossman72]

Note on rule differences:

In FED rules, if the umpire's decision puts either team at a disadvantage, the umpire can rectify the problem.

In OBR, the play will stand if the call is reversed or not.

[socalblue1]

Originally Posted by SAump

Must the base ump wait for PU to ask or may BU independently, ring up the B/R from A?

Great question!

My philosophy when PU is I WANT the BU to make the call right away. We brief this pre-game: with two strikes and a loose ball I will ALWAYS as the BU on a check swing situation. IMO this is the best solution for all three teams on the field & eliminates potential confusion

Given the right situation, I have no problem with the BU giving his input without delay. As an example from last weekend: R3 with one out. 0-2 pitch is a decent slider in the dirt with a check swing. Ball bounces off F2 right up the 1B line.

I now have several things going on around home plate, including a potential tangle/untangle between F2 & the batter-runner. My partner in C renders a clear and LOUD "No, he didn't go!". Batter stops, F2 gets to the ball, R3 holds and we go to the next pitch with no drama.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by socalblue1

Great question!

My philosophy when PU is I WANT the BU to make the call right away. We brief this pre-game: with two strikes and a loose ball I will ALWAYS as the BU on a check swing situation. IMO this is the best solution for all three teams on the field & eliminates potential confusion

Given the right situation, I have no problem with the BU giving his input without delay. As an example from last weekend: R3 with one out. 0-2 pitch is a decent slider in the dirt with a check swing. Ball bounces off F2 right up the 1B line.

I now have several things going on around home plate, including a potential tangle/untangle between F2 & the batter-runner. My partner in C renders a clear and LOUD "No, he didn't go!". Batter stops, F2 gets to the ball, R3 holds and we go to the next pitch with no drama.

The ML mechanic (last I heard / read) is that BU is to come up with an immediate call without being asked only if he is going to rule a swing / strike. If he's going to support the "no call", then he waits to be asked.

I'm certainly NOT saying that SoCalBlue's partner used the "wrong" mechanic -- only pointing out that it's "different."

Whatever is used should be pre-gamed -- and recognize that it will be new to many participants, so expect some confusion / delay / missed mechanics the first several times it is (or should be) used.

[mick]

Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty

The best umpire in our unit a couple of years back had this exact thing happen--and he discussed it with his partner in the pregame! (I was there because my son was in the game.)

Second inning; 3-2 count; checked swing; wild pitch; PU says "Ball four, DID HE GO?" He did it immediately, like Tuss said.

It gave the BR a chance to go more quickly to first to beat the throw on the K, which it was.

Full count and pass ball.
Batter/Runner should be moving, shouldn't he?

[Emperor Ump]

Originally Posted by SAump

Must the base ump wait for PU to ask or may BU independently, ring up the B/R from A?

He must absolutely wait to be asked. It's the same as any other call until you're asked, don't say a word. Having a BU make a call on a swing w/o being properly appealed to opens up a terrible bag of worms. Next thing you know the defense is asking your partner to make these calls without you knowing and then the PU loses control.

I have no problem appealing or even giving a call opposite of my partner when asked, but would never consider making the call w/o being asked.

Back to the O/P, the PU should come up quickly with the appeal. Even/especially with the ball being at the back stop.

But if the catcher comes back from the backstop and the defense hasn't already done something to loose their right to an appeal, they can still appeal, and potentially get that out.

P.S. FWIW I also don't believe in using an "I've got info" type signal. Good coaches can sniff theses out and it has the same effect of shoving a call up your partners a$$ when a coach comes out to argue and then saying, "We'll why don't you go ask you're partner I know he has something different because I saw him take off his cap..." or what ever your signal may be. Not a good situation to be in.

[socalblue1]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

The ML mechanic (last I heard / read) is that BU is to come up with an immediate call without being asked only if he is going to rule a swing / strike. If he's going to support the "no call", then he waits to be asked.

I'm certainly NOT saying that SoCalBlue's partner used the "wrong" mechanic -- only pointing out that it's "different."

Whatever is used should be pre-gamed -- and recognize that it will be new to many participants, so expect some confusion / delay / missed mechanics the first several times it is (or should be) used.

Bob,

Normally I would expect the call only when he is going to rule a strike.

Partner recognized the potential for problems and made what I thought was a great decision in this case.

[njdevs00cup]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

The ML mechanic (last I heard / read) is that BU is to come up with an immediate call without being asked only if he is going to rule a swing / strike. If he's going to support the "no call", then he waits to be asked.

I'm certainly NOT saying that SoCalBlue's partner used the "wrong" mechanic -- only pointing out that it's "different."

Whatever is used should be pre-gamed -- and recognize that it will be new to many participants, so expect some confusion / delay / missed mechanics the first several times it is (or should be) used.

Bob,

Assuming this situation is during a high school game, two man crews) wouldn't an immediate strike call (by BU, w/o appeal) on a left-handed batter be looking for problems?

[socalblue1]

Originally Posted by njdevs00cup

Bob,

Assuming this situation is during a high school game, two man crews) wouldn't an immediate strike call (by BU, w/o appeal) on a left-handed batter be looking for problems?

I'm not Bob, but why? Any umpire who is unable or unwilling to make a check swing call from any location on any batter should stop umpiring. Simple mjusdgement - did the batter offer at the pitch?

[Dave Reed]

Since there seems to some variance in opinion, here is what the MLBUM says:
8.7 "VOLUNTARY STRIKE"
In the situation where the third strike eludes the catcher on a half-swing and the batter-runner is entitled to run to first base, the appeal should be made to the base umpire instantly (without waiting for a request from the defense); but even if the appeal is not instant, the appropriate base umpire should immediately and voluntarily make a call of strike IF the base umpire is going to reverse the plate umpire's call. This will give the batter the immediate opportunity to run.

[Bolding, caps, and quotation marks copied from MLBUM.]

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by njdevs00cup

Bob,

Assuming this situation is during a high school game, two man crews) wouldn't an immediate strike call (by BU, w/o appeal) on a left-handed batter be looking for problems?

If BU is going to "call it later" then he's better off "calling it now."

[PeteBooth]

Dave that's what the manual says but in all my years of watching PRO ball I have yet to see a BU ON HIS OWN make a call of strike on the play presented.

I know the Doug Eddings play in the ACLS years back was a little different but no other umpire "piped-up" during that fiasco.

It's like many things in life - meaning there is a manual and then there is actual practice.

Pete Booth