Mlbum 5-4(1)

[Publius]

Originally Posted by _Bruno_

from J/R

If a runner misses home plate and does not return to touch it, a time play is judged according to the time he passed the plate. If he returns to touch home, the passing of the plate is negated and the time play is judged according to the actual touch of the plate. EG: R2, two outs. The batter singles to center field. The throw to the plate is relayed to second base and R2 misses home plate just before the batter-runner is tagged out:
(a) If R2 proceeds to his dugout or position and all infielders leave fair territory (no appeal), R2's run counts. [NFHS 8.2.2n]
(b) If the defense appeals R2's miss of the plate, he is out and there is no run.
(c) If R2 returns to the plate and touches it after the out at second base, his "touch or pass" of home plate has then occurred after the third out, and cannot be counted; this is a time play.

Evans provides a more workable interpretation, IMO.

If the runner passes the plate prior to the non-force third out, the run counts on the time play unless the defense appeals for an advantageous "fourth out". If R2 retouches before the appeal but after the third out, the retouch is simply ignored as illegal.

If a proper missed-base appeal is made, it is upheld and the run does not count regardless of whether R2 retouches after the third out.

If no appeal is made, the run counts regardless of whether R2 retouches after the third out.

[bossman72]

Originally Posted by Publius

Evans provides a more workable interpretation, IMO.

If the runner passes the plate prior to the non-force third out, the run counts on the time play unless the defense appeals for an advantageous "fourth out". If R2 retouches before the appeal but after the third out, the retouch is simply ignored as illegal.

If a proper missed-base appeal is made, it is upheld and the run does not count regardless of whether R2 retouches after the third out.

If no appeal is made, the run counts regardless of whether R2 retouches after the third out.

This is what I based my interp off of. I like Evan's interp over J/R's in this scenario.

[SAump]

This ruling comes from The Wendelstedt Umpire School Manual. After reviewing my JEA (unknown date) and the 2008 MLBUM, they do not address this. Relaxed and unrelaxed actions have been used by J/R (don't own) and do not seem to apply here.

Sitch B: The runner slides wide of the plate and the catcher misses with his sweeping tag effort. The runner gets up and decoys that he is going to the dugout then reverses his path abruptly and dives for the plate. The catcher jumps on the plate with the ball held securely and appeals before the runner touches it. Is this a proper appeal or does the run count?
RULING: This out stands since the runner did not make an “immediate effort to return.” (Umpire's judgment) At one point, the catcher would have been required to leave the plate area to make the play.
This ruling comes from said JEA and is supported by Wendelstedt.

The tag-only requirement in regards to the OP needs further refinement, as 2008 D3K did.
BTW, if that umpire denied my catcher's verbal appeal at the plate, I would have called for a HBP as soon as ball was back in play to set up the Force Play. JMOHO

[SAump]

Just out of curiosity:

R1, base hit back to F1 who is distracted by possible play at 2B, B/R safely slides into 1B. Forgetting the rules, he stands up to shake the dirt out of his crotch. Big lumbering 1B applies a swipe tag and misses. The runner retreats a yard or two toward HP. F3 waits on the base with the ball. He realizes a chase would be futile. B/R is facing 1B but you know he's quick and can run away from F3. F3 is facing B/R but is holding R1 at 2B. When do I have desertion/abandonment when a tag play is now required or is this another stalemate? The 1B coach is screaming he called time but the umpire was slow in granting it. Action can be relaxed or unrelaxed, take your pick. The ruling from NY isn't expected for 3 more half-innings.

Reference: Roder's Problem #6

[greymule]

F3 should walk toward home, forcing the BR back toward the plate. At the same time, F3 should keep an eye on the other runner, holding him at 2B. When the BR retreats all the way to home plate, he's out. Merely moving backward toward the plate to avoid a tag is not abandonment.

Whatever the coach is screaming about time out is irrelevant.

[In case anybody cares: in ASA softball, the BR would be out for stepping backward to delay or avoid a tag, and even though the BR touched 1B, the . . . ahem . . . "force" at 1B is reinstated when the runner retreated toward the last base he "occupied" (home).]

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by SAump

Correct. OP did not give outs, but any good explanation would be "weak" at best. B/R obtained 1B.

Rules have recently changed about 3 outs ending an inning and advantageous 4th out appeals. Caseplay where R2 is tagged for 3rd out and following appeal at 1B is denied by current Pro rule interpretation, which allows run to score, has not met with scorekeepers approval. Clasic case of PRO umpires making UP the rules. These guys are umpires, not scorekeepers. That is another protest decision, yet to be resolved. Any umpire of an "umpinion" that it is true has another problem with public opinion. Fantasy League rules, maybe. It would be easier to amend 7.10 in about 10 years than explain that caseplay to the public.

You cannot make an "apparant fourth out appeal" for the BR failing to reach first base. That's not "PRO umpires making UP rules." It's PRO umpires FOLLOWING the rules.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

You cannot make an "apparant fourth out appeal" for the BR failing to reach first base. That's not "PRO umpires making UP rules." It's PRO umpires FOLLOWING the rules.

Umpires should enforce the written rules of baseball.

Edited note: Previous statements COMPLETELY deleted and cut to the point below.
Is the caseplay included in any edition of the 2008 MLBUM, JEA, J/R or PBUC "training" material?
Has the 1 year old caseplay been accepted and approved by the participants of NAPBL?

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

You cannot make an "apparant fourth out appeal" for the BR failing to reach first base. That's not "PRO umpires making UP rules." It's PRO umpires FOLLOWING the rules.

This situation was discussed at length earlier this year on a couple forums with no clear consensus amongst the participants. If you do a search, you'll find a pretty decent sized thread from earlier this year.