Mlbum 5-4(1)

[SAump]

I may be a DORK for bringing up 72 hours later.
But the 2 plays are IDENTICAL and I am only a DORK for KNOWING it.

I don't see any inference or requirement to tag anyone scrambling back to reach HP.
Add the fact that there is no inadvertant appeal in baseball {J/R, KP, pg 16}.
Add to that major rule difference between Pro and NCAA 8-6-4 statute.
Add some freaking ASA rules to that.

And if I am still WRONG, then it is only because the 2 plays are so close in nature, I thought it was worth my time to bring it back up AGAIN to try to find a clue.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by SAump

And if I am still WRONG, then it is only because the 2 plays are so close in nature, I thought it was worth my time to bring it back up AGAIN to try to find a clue why I still don't get it.

I assume the play to which you refer in the MLBUM is this:

Runner on first, one out. The batter doubles. Runner on first rounds the bases and tries for
home. On the play at the plate, the catcher misses the tag and runner misses the plate in
sliding by. As the catcher begins to chase the runner to apply a tag, the batter-runner tries
for third base. Seeing this, the catcher throws to the third baseman, who retires the batterrunner.
May the defensive team still appeal at home on the runner originally on first?
Ruling: Yes. The catcher's play on the batter-runner at third base was still part of the
continuous action created by and following the batted ball. Therefore, the defensive team
would not lose its rights to make an appeal by playing on the runner at home or the batterrunner
at third and may still appeal at home.

Note that in the MLBUM play, the runenr never attempted to return to the plate. He slid by and continued to the dugout.

In the play in the now closed thread, there was no play at third. All the action happened near the plate. Also, in part A of the OP, the runner attempted to come back to touch the plate.

So, while the plays start out the same (runner misses home while F2 misses tag), the later action, and the question they are attempting to address are different.

What you want to read to answer the OP is MLBUM section 5.3 -- note that the first part of 5.3 is part (b) of the op; the second part of 5.3 is part (a) of the OP. I've bolded the relevant ruling.


5.3 RUNNER MISSES HOME PLATE
Should a runner, in scoring, fail to touch home plate and continue on his way to the bench
(making no effort to return), he may be put out by the fielder touching home plate and appealing
to the umpire for a decision. However, this rule applies only where a runner is on his way to the
bench and the catcher would be required to chase the runner. It does not apply to the ordinary
play where the runner misses the plate and then immediately makes an effort to touch the plate
before being tagged. In that case, the runner must be tagged. In such cases, base path rules still
apply to the runner (i.e., he may not run more than three feet from the "baseline" between him
and home plate).

[greymule]

In that first MLBUM play, what if, after the third baseman retires the BR for the third out, the catcher yells for the ball to appeal the miss of home while the runner who missed the plate is scrambling back to touch it.

Can the runner correct his miss after 3 out? If he touches the plate before F2 gets the ball, does his run count? I know that this question has come up on this board, and as I remember, the answer was that the runner could not correct his error after 3 outs, though the defense could still appeal.

However, if the runner cannot correct an error after 3 out, then whether he is scrambling back or walking toward the dugout is irrelevant. So I'm still confused.

[bossman72]

Originally Posted by greymule

Can the runner correct his miss after 3 out?

I read on Rob Drake's site that he asked Jim Evans this and Evans said that runners are NOT allowed to correct base running mistakes after the 3rd out.

[Umpmazza]

Originally Posted by bossman72

I read on Rob Drake's site that he asked Jim Evans this and Evans said that runners are NOT allowed to correct base running mistakes after the 3rd out.

yes that is correct....

[greymule]

That's what I thought. Therefore, once there are 3 outs, it doesn't matter whether the runner is walking toward the dugout or scrambling back to touch the plate. The defense can still appeal, even after the runner touches the base he missed.

If at the time of the third out the runner was scrambling back toward to plate in an obvious attempt to correct a miss, is an appeal still necessary? Several decades ago, I was that very runner, and the ump (with no appeal by the defense) disallowed my run.

[bossman72]

Originally Posted by greymule

If at the time of the third out the runner was scrambling back toward to plate in an obvious attempt to correct a miss, is an appeal still necessary?

Yes, a runner is considered to have touched a base until it is appealed. The PU should have scored you in your scenario.

[_Bruno_]

Originally Posted by bossman72

Yes, a runner is considered to have touched a base until it is appealed. The PU should have scored you in your scenario.

from J/R

If a runner misses home plate and does not return to touch it, a time play is judged according to the time he passed the plate. If he returns to touch home, the passing of the plate is negated and the time play is judged according to the actual touch of the plate. EG: R2, two outs. The batter singles to center field. The throw to the plate is relayed to second base and R2 misses home plate just before the batter-runner is tagged out:
(a) If R2 proceeds to his dugout or position and all infielders leave fair territory (no appeal), R2's run counts. [NFHS 8.2.2n]
(b) If the defense appeals R2's miss of the plate, he is out and there is no run.
(c) If R2 returns to the plate and touches it after the out at second base, his "touch or pass" of home plate has then occurred after the third out, and cannot be counted; this is a time play.

[Publius]

Originally Posted by _Bruno_

from J/R

If a runner misses home plate and does not return to touch it, a time play is judged according to the time he passed the plate. If he returns to touch home, the passing of the plate is negated and the time play is judged according to the actual touch of the plate. EG: R2, two outs. The batter singles to center field. The throw to the plate is relayed to second base and R2 misses home plate just before the batter-runner is tagged out:
(a) If R2 proceeds to his dugout or position and all infielders leave fair territory (no appeal), R2's run counts. [NFHS 8.2.2n]
(b) If the defense appeals R2's miss of the plate, he is out and there is no run.
(c) If R2 returns to the plate and touches it after the out at second base, his "touch or pass" of home plate has then occurred after the third out, and cannot be counted; this is a time play.

Evans provides a more workable interpretation, IMO.

If the runner passes the plate prior to the non-force third out, the run counts on the time play unless the defense appeals for an advantageous "fourth out". If R2 retouches before the appeal but after the third out, the retouch is simply ignored as illegal.

If a proper missed-base appeal is made, it is upheld and the run does not count regardless of whether R2 retouches after the third out.

If no appeal is made, the run counts regardless of whether R2 retouches after the third out.

[bossman72]

Originally Posted by Publius

Evans provides a more workable interpretation, IMO.

If the runner passes the plate prior to the non-force third out, the run counts on the time play unless the defense appeals for an advantageous "fourth out". If R2 retouches before the appeal but after the third out, the retouch is simply ignored as illegal.

If a proper missed-base appeal is made, it is upheld and the run does not count regardless of whether R2 retouches after the third out.

If no appeal is made, the run counts regardless of whether R2 retouches after the third out.

This is what I based my interp off of. I like Evan's interp over J/R's in this scenario.

[SAump]

This ruling comes from The Wendelstedt Umpire School Manual. After reviewing my JEA (unknown date) and the 2008 MLBUM, they do not address this. Relaxed and unrelaxed actions have been used by J/R (don't own) and do not seem to apply here.

Sitch B: The runner slides wide of the plate and the catcher misses with his sweeping tag effort. The runner gets up and decoys that he is going to the dugout then reverses his path abruptly and dives for the plate. The catcher jumps on the plate with the ball held securely and appeals before the runner touches it. Is this a proper appeal or does the run count?
RULING: This out stands since the runner did not make an “immediate effort to return.” (Umpire's judgment) At one point, the catcher would have been required to leave the plate area to make the play.
This ruling comes from said JEA and is supported by Wendelstedt.

The tag-only requirement in regards to the OP needs further refinement, as 2008 D3K did.
BTW, if that umpire denied my catcher's verbal appeal at the plate, I would have called for a HBP as soon as ball was back in play to set up the Force Play. JMOHO

[SAump]

Just out of curiosity:

R1, base hit back to F1 who is distracted by possible play at 2B, B/R safely slides into 1B. Forgetting the rules, he stands up to shake the dirt out of his crotch. Big lumbering 1B applies a swipe tag and misses. The runner retreats a yard or two toward HP. F3 waits on the base with the ball. He realizes a chase would be futile. B/R is facing 1B but you know he's quick and can run away from F3. F3 is facing B/R but is holding R1 at 2B. When do I have desertion/abandonment when a tag play is now required or is this another stalemate? The 1B coach is screaming he called time but the umpire was slow in granting it. Action can be relaxed or unrelaxed, take your pick. The ruling from NY isn't expected for 3 more half-innings.

Reference: Roder's Problem #6

[greymule]

F3 should walk toward home, forcing the BR back toward the plate. At the same time, F3 should keep an eye on the other runner, holding him at 2B. When the BR retreats all the way to home plate, he's out. Merely moving backward toward the plate to avoid a tag is not abandonment.

Whatever the coach is screaming about time out is irrelevant.

[In case anybody cares: in ASA softball, the BR would be out for stepping backward to delay or avoid a tag, and even though the BR touched 1B, the . . . ahem . . . "force" at 1B is reinstated when the runner retreated toward the last base he "occupied" (home).]

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by SAump

Correct. OP did not give outs, but any good explanation would be "weak" at best. B/R obtained 1B.

Rules have recently changed about 3 outs ending an inning and advantageous 4th out appeals. Caseplay where R2 is tagged for 3rd out and following appeal at 1B is denied by current Pro rule interpretation, which allows run to score, has not met with scorekeepers approval. Clasic case of PRO umpires making UP the rules. These guys are umpires, not scorekeepers. That is another protest decision, yet to be resolved. Any umpire of an "umpinion" that it is true has another problem with public opinion. Fantasy League rules, maybe. It would be easier to amend 7.10 in about 10 years than explain that caseplay to the public.

You cannot make an "apparant fourth out appeal" for the BR failing to reach first base. That's not "PRO umpires making UP rules." It's PRO umpires FOLLOWING the rules.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

You cannot make an "apparant fourth out appeal" for the BR failing to reach first base. That's not "PRO umpires making UP rules." It's PRO umpires FOLLOWING the rules.

Umpires should enforce the written rules of baseball.

Edited note: Previous statements COMPLETELY deleted and cut to the point below.
Is the caseplay included in any edition of the 2008 MLBUM, JEA, J/R or PBUC "training" material?
Has the 1 year old caseplay been accepted and approved by the participants of NAPBL?