Base Umpire Warning Pitcher

[Umpmazza]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Rich I agree but in a way this could be similar to the following:

R2 BU in "C"

Ground ball to F6. R2 clearly interferes (by clearly interferes I mean a TEXTBOOK interference call) with F6 in his attempt to field a batted ball.

Your partner the BU is "right there" looking at the same thing as you the PU but gives no call.

We all know any umpire can call interference but in general on play's at the bases we defer to our partner's judgement, however, this is a TEXTBOOK interference call.

Aren't you as the PU going to call it?

I think the answer is yes which brings me back to this OP.

Let's assume F1 for the losing team had outstanding control all game long, even though he was on the losing side of the score (there could have been a variety of reasons). When he missed he missed by inches.

Now he Plunks someone. At this point one can assume that the ENTIRE park KNOWS what's going on and yet your partner the PU says NOTHING.

IMO, this crew is now "asking for it" since NO-ONE took control and should a brawl develop IMO the ENTIRE crew now looks bad not just the PU.

Therefore, in what I call a TEXTBOOK Plunk by F1 wouldn't you as BU now say something to avoid what is most likely to transpire next if your partner the PU says nothing.

Pete Booth

IN this play Pete... I would call time and go and talk to my partner and ask him if maybe he saw? anything?....and then I might give him my advice/ ruling on the play. But i really think that in this type of play the most important thing id to get the call right.

I had a college showcase tourny this year, Championship game Im PU and we are in 3 man. NFHS rules. We had a R1 and 1 out. ground ball to F4 who threw to F6.. R1 made no attempt to move away from the play, . or slide, made contact with F6's arm on the throw to 1st so we had FPSR right?.. well U3 who was standing in the "C" position saw the hole play and called nothing. I as PU was coming up 1st baseline to cover any type of pulled foot swipe tag kept running and started to talk to U1 about the play and we both had FPSR. So we had said well" we can't make the call for him as he needs to come to us and talk to us about the play. about 30 sec later he see's us standing there and comes over to talk to us, and ask " Did i miss something?" So we told him our answers and what we would call, but he had to make the call at 2nd.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

Not me, Pete. I'm not going to eat my partners lunch here. Unless I'm working with a brand spanking new umpire, no way I make this call as a PU. Perhaps his definition of "textbook interference" and mine are different.


Tim.

Exactly. Or maybe he might be able to see a look of "Oops!" on the pitcher's face, or any of a myriad of clues indicating a lack of intention on the pitcher's part which are not visible to a BU.

[PeteBooth]

[quote=ldub;553214]

so....the guy has "outstanding control" all game, then he hits one batter and you as the bu are issuing a warning? I don't see how this meets the definition of a "textbook plunk", whatever that is.

Re-read the OP

Apparently you did not play the game

There was an incident in the previous inning which prompted F1 to do what he did.

You do not need to be a Rocket Scientist to figure it out. EVERYONE except the PU knew what was going on.

This particular game went without further incident but just as easily could have developed into something ugly.

Pete Booth

[Matt]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Re-read the OP

Apparently you did not play the game

There was an incident in the previous inning which prompted F1 to do what he did.

You do not need to be a Rocket Scientist to figure it out. EVERYONE except the PU knew what was going on.

This particular game went without further incident but just as easily could have developed into something ugly.

Pete Booth

So what? Deal with it if and when it turns ugly. If BU issues this warning, then it WILL turn ugly (you'd know that if you played the game.) There will be a justifiably upset defensive manager wondering why BU poached PU's call, and PU is going to have to go back to that dilemma I stated earlier. The defensive manager is also going to need an explanation as to why BU is talking to his pitcher when it's not his place.

Let's erase everything here except BU's point of view--he judges that the pitch was intentionally thrown at the batter. PU doesn't issue a warning. Occam's Razor indicates that PU probably had a reason not to do so, and not that he had a brain fart. BU has no way of ascertaining it. BU needs to stay off PU's call.

What you suggest is patchwork umpiring at its finest. Let PU handle the battery as he sees fit--if he has a brain fart and doesn't warn, it's not the end of the world.

[JJ]

...and oh, yes, there will be a post game discussion expounding upon everyone's point of view. If the the PU says, "Oops", then end of discussion.

JJ

[Rcichon]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Rich I agree but in a way this could be similar to the following:

.........clipped

Aren't you as the PU going to call it?

Yes, and have done so.

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

...clipped...I think the answer is yes which brings me back to this OP.

Let's assume F1 for the losing team had outstanding control all game long, even though he was on the losing side of the score (there could have been a variety of reasons). When he missed he missed by inches.

Now he Plunks someone. At this point one can assume that the ENTIRE park KNOWS what's going on and yet your partner the PU says NOTHING.

IMO, this crew is now "asking for it" since NO-ONE took control and should a brawl develop IMO the ENTIRE crew now looks bad not just the PU.

Therefore, in what I call a TEXTBOOK Plunk by F1 wouldn't you as BU now say something to avoid what is most likely to transpire next if your partner the PU says nothing.

Pete Booth

I'm not poaching his call unless he's an inexperienced Official (whom do not get too many Tournament Games around here). I will visit him and ask about the 'Textbook Plunk by F1' and subsequent observations just to raise awareness.

To be fair to your point, I have had calls poached as BU & PU and with the exception of a brain burp on my part, did not like the feeling. With that brain fart, I was appreciative my partner had been more observant than I and had caught the call.

FWIW

[ozzy6900]

I understand what Pete Booth is saying here. F1 has great control, then a taunt, a HR, a successful suicide or squeeze, then F1 plunks B1. But there are still things that have to be considered here.

Was the pitch a fastball or an errant breaking ball? As many professional pitchers have stated, "If I'm going to intentionally nail someone, he is getting my fastball, right in the ribs!". It is nearly impossible to control a breaking ball enough to drill a batter (but I am sure there are those who will argue this point). Now in most cases, the BU is not looking at the pitch as closely as the PU is (or should be). Last of all, the four times in my career that I dumped a pitcher, I was 98% sure that he was looking at the batter and not his target (which is F2). This the BU cannot see, and I don't care how good you think you are, a BU cannot tell were F1 is throwing the ball! Only the PU can see this.

So I say that even if the situation is right, and F1 does the deed, it is the PU's job to take care of this problem. The BU has to back up the PU and help keep order. I do not agree with the BU calling this. If you are working with a rookie at the plate, I still do not agree. You will have a $hithouse on your hands but that is what you get paid for.

Now before you start arguing about the "rookie PU", tell me, would you jump in if he calls a fastball down the center of the plate, belt high a ball? Would you jump in if he calls the slider off the plate a strike? Some calls just belong to the PU, and IMO, this is one of them!

[Bill68]

Regarding a PU missing or overlooking a situation with a pitcher who may have thrown at a batter... rather than throwing the PU under the bus, we discuss the issue in the post-game and we have a Peer-to-Peer evaluation option where we can submit good and/or bad officiating to help out the newbees or wake up the vets. We are a team and we should think as one. Talking between inings is still a no-no in my book.
Thanks guys-