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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 10, 2008, 08:10pm
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Summer rules philosophy

All,

Most of us here work summer baseball where teams use OBR rules with their modifications (re-entry, metal bats, slide rule, etc). However in their league rules, the majority of the time, they don't list a penalty for violating these rules. It says what you MAY do, but does not have a consequence for violating that rule.

So, what would you do in the following situations.


1) League uses re-entry. A substitute re-enters the game after being out already. He doubles scoring 2 runs and then is noticed to be illegal. Would you do the straight OBR enforcement and toss him and let everything stand (according to an Evans interp) or would you invoke the FED penalty for illegal substitution?.

2) Another re-entry question. A pitcher is pinch hit for in the 3rd inning. He then re-enters the line-up to hit in the 6th inning. Would you let him pitch the next time that team goes on defense? This is legal in FED, but would you allow it in an OBR game (which OBR rules don't account for re-entry).

3) The league uses metal bats with a -3 differential. The batter uses a -5 and singles and then the bat is discovered. Would you call him out and return runners ala FED rules, or would you just remove the bat since it is "out of spec" ala OBR rules (MLBUM interp)?

4) League has a "slide or avoid" rule. A runner coming home maliciously contacts the catcher, who doesn't have the ball and is not fielding the ball (the catcher would be called for obstruction under normal circumstances). Would you call him out, eject him, and supersede the obstruction, or would you score him on the obstruction and eject him for the MC?


Thanks!
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 10, 2008, 09:40pm
DG DG is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossman72 View Post
All,

Most of us here work summer baseball where teams use OBR rules with their modifications (re-entry, metal bats, slide rule, etc). However in their league rules, the majority of the time, they don't list a penalty for violating these rules. It says what you MAY do, but does not have a consequence for violating that rule.

So, what would you do in the following situations.


1) League uses re-entry. A substitute re-enters the game after being out already. He doubles scoring 2 runs and then is noticed to be illegal. Would you do the straight OBR enforcement and toss him and let everything stand (according to an Evans interp) or would you invoke the FED penalty for illegal substitution?.

2) Another re-entry question. A pitcher is pinch hit for in the 3rd inning. He then re-enters the line-up to hit in the 6th inning. Would you let him pitch the next time that team goes on defense? This is legal in FED, but would you allow it in an OBR game (which OBR rules don't account for re-entry).

3) The league uses metal bats with a -3 differential. The batter uses a -5 and singles and then the bat is discovered. Would you call him out and return runners ala FED rules, or would you just remove the bat since it is "out of spec" ala OBR rules (MLBUM interp)?

4) League has a "slide or avoid" rule. A runner coming home maliciously contacts the catcher, who doesn't have the ball and is not fielding the ball (the catcher would be called for obstruction under normal circumstances). Would you call him out, eject him, and supersede the obstruction, or would you score him on the obstruction and eject him for the MC?
I love it, the league has confusing rules and then the coaches complain because umpires don't know the rules.

1) If they are playing OBR rules toss the guy and play on.
2) If they are playing OBR with re-entry, then yes, let him pitch.
3) If they are playing OBR rules, remove the bat.
4) They are not playing OBR rules here, League has slide or avoid rule so malicious contact is to be penalized, period. Out, toss, next... This is essentially FED, MC supersedes instruction, but slide or avoid rule puts them on FED interpretation.
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 11, 2008, 08:41am
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I'd ask the league to re-write the rules to include the appropriate penalty. Failing that, then use the base rules (OBR, probably).
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Old Tue Nov 11, 2008, 10:05am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DG View Post
I love it, the league has confusing rules and then the coaches complain because umpires don't know the rules.

1) If they are playing OBR rules toss the guy and play on.
2) If they are playing OBR with re-entry, then yes, let him pitch.
3) If they are playing OBR rules, remove the bat.
4) They are not playing OBR rules here, League has slide or avoid rule so malicious contact is to be penalized, period. Out, toss, next... This is essentially FED, MC supersedes instruction, but slide or avoid rule puts them on FED interpretation.
Re 4)

Slide/avoid could also put them in the realm of NCAA, Legion, or LL. Under these rules, given the obstruction, you award home and then eject.
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 11, 2008, 10:57pm
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Guys,

For #1, the J/R suggests a penalty similar to FED rules which contradict Evan's interp. Which do you think should be followed?
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 12, 2008, 09:54pm
DG DG is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossman72 View Post
Guys,

For #1, the J/R suggests a penalty similar to FED rules which contradict Evan's interp. Which do you think should be followed?
Explain.

J/R says illegal sub is ejected when discovered, "however, play is otherwise unnafected and another player takes the place of the ejeced illegal substitute".
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Old Thu Nov 13, 2008, 12:34pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DG View Post
Explain.

J/R says illegal sub is ejected when discovered, "however, play is otherwise unnafected and another player takes the place of the ejeced illegal substitute".
JR says to rectify any action made by an illegal sub (similar to batting out of order).

Evans says to eject the illegal sub and everything he did would stand.
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 13, 2008, 01:14pm
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[QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossman72 View Post
All,

Most of us here work summer baseball where teams use OBR rules with their modifications (re-entry, metal bats, slide rule, etc). However in their league rules, the majority of the time, they don't list a penalty for violating these rules. It says what you MAY do, but does not have a consequence for violating that rule.
Bossman most of the leagues we service DO SPECIFY the penalty

Example:

Legion has their own rules which you can down-load.

Legion has the NCAA FPSR and Collision rule and some others.

Other than those SPECIFIED Legion uses American League OBR rules meaning DH for F1 only (except for the Jr Division which I believe is changing in year 2009) No Re-entry

Most of the leagues we service say one of the following:

Except those rules highlighted below all other rules are governed by the Official Rules of baseball or some leagues say Except for those rules highlighted below all other rules are governend by NFHS rules.

In a nutshell I do not know what leagues you umpire in where there is not a SPECIFIC penalty etc.

Yes most leagues use a hybrid of rules, but these hybrid rules are copied almost verbatim from the "other' rule set.

In any event I agree with Bob, absent anything SPECIFIC I think the default rule code would be OBR except in those instances where Re-Entry is used (Obviously no re-entry in OBR ruels) and bat restrictions. In those instances IMO, the default rule code would be NFHS and I would rule accordingly.

Now whether or not you get into the different interps between Evans vs. Roder is an entirely different matter.

Pete Booth
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old Fri Nov 14, 2008, 09:02am
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Pete,

Legion around here is only done at the varsity level and we have no problems since everything is detailed. Everything other than varsity legion is what I'm talking about.
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 17, 2008, 03:25pm
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossman72 View Post
All,

Most of us here work summer baseball where teams use OBR rules with their modifications (re-entry, metal bats, slide rule, etc). However in their league rules, the majority of the time, they don't list a penalty for violating these rules. It says what you MAY do, but does not have a consequence for violating that rule.

So, what would you do in the following situations.


1) League uses re-entry. A substitute re-enters the game after being out already. He doubles scoring 2 runs and then is noticed to be illegal. Would you do the straight OBR enforcement and toss him and let everything stand (according to an Evans interp) or would you invoke the FED penalty for illegal substitution?.

2) Another re-entry question. A pitcher is pinch hit for in the 3rd inning. He then re-enters the line-up to hit in the 6th inning. Would you let him pitch the next time that team goes on defense? This is legal in FED, but would you allow it in an OBR game (which OBR rules don't account for re-entry).

3) The league uses metal bats with a -3 differential. The batter uses a -5 and singles and then the bat is discovered. Would you call him out and return runners ala FED rules, or would you just remove the bat since it is "out of spec" ala OBR rules (MLBUM interp)?

4) League has a "slide or avoid" rule. A runner coming home maliciously contacts the catcher, who doesn't have the ball and is not fielding the ball (the catcher would be called for obstruction under normal circumstances). Would you call him out, eject him, and supersede the obstruction, or would you score him on the obstruction and eject him for the MC?


Thanks!
Bossman without anything Specific from these leagues I would use the FED rulings

Why!

Because there is no such animal as re-entry in OBR so the Evans / J/R interps IMO do not "hold water"

Same is true about minus 3 bats vs. minus 5. and "slide / avoid"

In a nusthell I would use FED as the default in all your scenarios. If someone complained or protested then hopefully at that point they would address those issues.

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  #11 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 19, 2008, 11:25pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossman72 View Post
All,

Most of us here work summer baseball where teams use OBR rules with their modifications (re-entry, metal bats, slide rule, etc). However in their league rules, the majority of the time, they don't list a penalty for violating these rules. It says what you MAY do, but does not have a consequence for violating that rule.

So, what would you do in the following situations.


1) League uses re-entry. A substitute re-enters the game after being out already. He doubles scoring 2 runs and then is noticed to be illegal. Would you do the straight OBR enforcement and toss him and let everything stand (according to an Evans interp) or would you invoke the FED penalty for illegal substitution?.

2) Another re-entry question. A pitcher is pinch hit for in the 3rd inning. He then re-enters the line-up to hit in the 6th inning. Would you let him pitch the next time that team goes on defense? This is legal in FED, but would you allow it in an OBR game (which OBR rules don't account for re-entry).

3) The league uses metal bats with a -3 differential. The batter uses a -5 and singles and then the bat is discovered. Would you call him out and return runners ala FED rules, or would you just remove the bat since it is "out of spec" ala OBR rules (MLBUM interp)?

4) League has a "slide or avoid" rule. A runner coming home maliciously contacts the catcher, who doesn't have the ball and is not fielding the ball (the catcher would be called for obstruction under normal circumstances). Would you call him out, eject him, and supersede the obstruction, or would you score him on the obstruction and eject him for the MC?


Thanks!
I think you pointed it out above...OBR rules with modifications...
I don't think I have ever used FED rules with modifications in the summer...

Every state has its quirks though...

Big book..let the chips fall where they may...

Plate meeting should remove some of the grey areas if you want answers to your question..
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Old Thu Nov 20, 2008, 05:11pm
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Not to be cynical or anything....

1. I lie whenever I can, esp, about pitches on the outside corner.
2. I make up my own rules to get the game over quickly, and if there is any question about enforcement, it is whatever rule set allows the greatest number of outs quickly I can get.
3. I eject as many people as possible to end the game quickly so I can take my gear off and put my cap on straight....
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Old Thu Nov 20, 2008, 07:38pm
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Originally Posted by jkumpire View Post
1. I lie whenever I can, esp, about pitches on the outside corner.
2. I make up my own rules to get the game over quickly, and if there is any question about enforcement, it is whatever rule set allows the greatest number of outs quickly I can get.
3. I eject as many people as possible to end the game quickly so I can take my gear off and put my cap on straight....
jkumpire = Coaches Dream!
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Old Thu Nov 20, 2008, 09:12pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkumpire View Post
1. I lie whenever I can, esp, about pitches on the outside corner.
2. I make up my own rules to get the game over quickly, and if there is any question about enforcement, it is whatever rule set allows the greatest number of outs quickly I can get.
3. I eject as many people as possible to end the game quickly so I can take my gear off and put my cap on straight....
You gotta be $hitting me!
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Old Thu Nov 20, 2008, 09:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkumpire View Post
1. I lie whenever I can, esp, about pitches on the outside corner.
2. I make up my own rules to get the game over quickly, and if there is any question about enforcement, it is whatever rule set allows the greatest number of outs quickly I can get.
3. I eject as many people as possible to end the game quickly so I can take my gear off and put my cap on straight....
If you lie all the time, how will they get the message when you make a FYC?
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