Does Run count?

[Nigel Tufnel]

Also, I cannot remember who said it but Punish stupidity whenever possible

Pete Booth[/QUOTE]

Amen...

Enough of the "what if's" in this scenario. This will not happen in shaving age, and if it happens below that, coaches, parents, and the groundskeeper will be on that kid to touch home..

[Dave Reed]

Originally Posted by greymule

I remember specifically the case play in which the batter hits a 2-out grand slam but rounds 1B and passes R1 before R3 touches the plate. No run in that case. I can't see why the same principle wouldn't hold after a base on balls.

That case play is NCAA 8-5m A.R. I'm not aware of any similar case play in OBR. But Childress does recommend for OBR that umpires treat the situation like NCAA.

However, and interestingly, he also has a caseplay (414 in my BRD) which explicitly says that with a bases loaded 2 out walk, the run scores even if R1 passes R2 before R3 scores. He lists PBUC 3.13 and 7.04 b CMT as justification, seemingly regarding the question of put our versus declared out as non-material.

[greymule]

R1, two outs. Batter hits the ball over the fence and passes R1 between 1B and 2B. Would you let R1 continue around the bases and score? I wouldn't.

[Dave Reed]

greymule,

The crux of the plays under discussion is that the bases are loaded, and R3 is forced to advance on an award. A situation with only R1 is not relevant.

The question is: Is R3's advance to the plate (when forced to advance by an award with 2 outs) a timing play or not? OBR 7.04b and the following CMT make clear that it is not a timing play. [As an aside, notwithstanding Internet discussion and rationalization, the rules of baseball give the same effect to a put out and a declared out.]

If the force is removed, then subsequent scoring opportunities are timing plays. So on a walk, if for example R2 abandons before reaching third, then R3 doesn't score. For both single and multi-base awards, if B/R misses first or deserts, no runs score (in this case, because of 4.09). For multi-base awards, if B/R reaches first safely but is out before safely reaching second, only one run automatically scores, etc.

That's for OBR. NCAA has two inconsistent rulings:

NCAA 8-3a:
a. If forced to vacate the base because of a following runner;
A.R.—With two outs, if a runner is awarded home but does not touch the plate before a following runner is put out for the third out, the run scores unless the batter-runner was declared out before reaching first base or any other runner was declared out before reaching the base to which he was forced.

This A.R. corresponds well to OBR 7.04b. The other NCAA ruling which is inconsistent with both OBR and the above NCAA ruling (and in my opinion, wrong) is:

8-5m A.R.—With fewer than two outs, if a batter, while running the bases after a home run outside the playing field, passes a preceding runner, the batter is out; but all preceding runners score. With two outs, only those preceding runners score who have touched the plate before the batter is declared out. This is a time play, not an appeal play.

[greymule]

Dead ball passing runners, runs scoring

This thread from 2005 is quite relevant. I think I agree with my 2005 opinion, which was that the run from 3B scores on the base on balls even if BR passes R1. In the case of a force, I think "put out" and "declared out" should indeed be treated identically. Therefore, the odd opinion out is the NCAA ruling on the home run (8-5m).

[canadaump6]

Originally Posted by Nigel Tufnel

Also, I cannot remember who said it but Punish stupidity whenever possible

Pete Booth

Amen...

Enough of the "what if's" in this scenario. This will not happen in shaving age, and if it happens below that, coaches, parents, and the groundskeeper will be on that kid to touch home..[/QUOTE]

Can't take it not happening for granted.

[Dave Reed]

Originally Posted by greymule

Dead ball passing runners, runs scoring
This thread from 2005 is quite relevant.

In the 2005 thread (thanks!) Bob Jenkins points out a ruling from the NAPBL (subsequently PBUC) Manual which, contrary to what I wrote above, is similar to the NCAA 8-5m A.R. He ascribes the discrepancy between the BB example and the HR example to the difference between put out and declared out. I think it makes just as much sense to ascribe it to the difference between a BB and HR, or to insufficient attention while writing A.R.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Dave Reed

In the 2005 thread (thanks!) Bob Jenkins points out a ruling from the NAPBL (subsequently PBUC) Manual which, contrary to what I wrote above, is similar to the NCAA 8-5m A.R. He ascribes the discrepancy between the BB example and the HR example to the difference between put out and declared out. I think it makes just as much sense to ascribe it to the difference between a BB and HR, or to insufficient attention while writing A.R.

I will point out that FED recently (2 years ago?) changed their ruling on the "home run, BR passes R1 for the third out" play. They used to agree with OBR and NCAA. Now, they view all "awards" as items that cannot be taken away by the actions of a trailing runner.

So. on the OP, i'd have a different ruling under FED and NCAA /OBR games.

[greymule]

I think it makes just as much sense to ascribe it to the difference between a BB and HR, or to insufficient attention while writing A.R.

Possibly, but the BB and HR examples are both bases-loaded awards to the batter, while the BB put out versus the HR declared out is a concrete difference.

What we need is an OBR case play in which BR passes R1 on a bases-loaded walk.

[Dave Reed]

Other concrete differences:
The home run is a dead ball award, while the walk is live ball.
The home run is a multi base award (all runners are awarded home), while the walk is one base only.

Besides those concrete difference, note that during a dead ball award a put out is not possible, while during a walk award, by far the most likely scenario involves a put out - it is highly improbable that one base runner will pass another.
Since the two approved rulings involve specific examples, which need to be plausible, we should expect them to differ in the details of how outs are made.

[greymule]

Besides those concrete difference, note that during a dead ball award a put out is not possible, while during a walk award, by far the most likely scenario involves a put out - it is highly improbable that one base runner will pass another.

Can't disagree there. It's difficult to imagine a passed runner during a walk award.

I once did have R2 pass R3 during a dead ball award after a throw into DBT. Further, the passing caused the third out, so R3's run did not count. (This was not a force at home; if it had been . . . treat it like BR passing R1 on the home run?)