Does Run count?

[LongIslandZebra]

Any help on this play? Bases loaded 2 outs. Ball 4 to the batter gets passed the catcher. Before the runner from 3rd reaches home, the aggressive runner advancing from second, rounds third and is tagged out after a throw from the catcher. Does the run count?

how about this one:

Bases loaded 2 outs. Batter hits a ball in the gap which clears the bases. Batter/Runner winds up on third base. Defense appeals the batter/runner missed second and he is called out. How many runs score?

[Matt]

Originally Posted by LongIslandZebra

Any help on this play? Bases loaded 2 outs. Ball 4 to the batter gets passed the catcher. Before the runner from 3rd reaches home, the aggressive runner advancing from second, rounds third and is tagged out after a throw from the catcher. Does the run count?

Yes.

Originally Posted by LongIslandZebra

how about this one:

Bases loaded 2 outs. Batter hits a ball in the gap which clears the bases. Batter/Runner winds up on third base. Defense appeals the batter/runner missed second and he is called out. How many runs score?

Three, assuming the rest of the runners were not called out for any reason.

[LongIslandZebra]

why three?

[Matt]

Originally Posted by LongIslandZebra

why three?

How many preceding runners advanced to and touched home plate legally?

[SethPDX]

Originally Posted by LongIslandZebra

why three?

Once the batter-runner touches 1B a play on him becomes a time play. That is, any runners that touch the plate before the batter-runner is put out will score. This includes an appeal play at a base other than 1B, as described in your play.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by LongIslandZebra

Any help on this play? Bases loaded 2 outs. Ball 4 to the batter gets passed the catcher. Before the runner from 3rd reaches home, the aggressive runner advancing from second, rounds third and is tagged out after a throw from the catcher. Does the run count?

how about this one:

Bases loaded 2 outs. Batter hits a ball in the gap which clears the bases. Batter/Runner winds up on third base. Defense appeals the batter/runner missed second and he is called out. How many runs score?

LongIslandZebra:

Regarding your first question, we have already had this discussion last month: Does the run count?

MTD, Sr.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by LongIslandZebra

Any help on this play? Bases loaded 2 outs. Ball 4 to the batter gets passed the catcher. Before the runner from 3rd reaches home, the aggressive runner advancing from second, rounds third and is tagged out after a throw from the catcher. Does the run count?

As Mark stated, we went round and round with this before. Let's break it down.

1. Bases loaded, 2 out.
2. Batter walks (awarded 1st base)
3. All runners must advance at least 1 base.

Because of the award, the runner from 3rd scores no matter what. After that, everyone is on his own. In your case the runner rounding 3rd was caught off the base and therefore caused the 3rd out - inning over.

Don't be taken back because this is a question that many rookies (and some veterans) get wrong in the clinics. Like anything else, if you break it down and take it step by step, you can usually figure it out.

[dash_riprock]

The run scores because it is an awarded base.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

As Mark stated, we went round and round with this before. Let's break it down.

1. Bases loaded, 2 out.
2. Batter walks (awarded 1st base)
3. All runners must advance at least 1 base.

Because of the award, the runner from 3rd scores no matter what. After that, everyone is on his own. In your case the runner rounding 3rd was caught off the base and therefore caused the 3rd out - inning over.

Don't be taken back because this is a question that many rookies (and some veterans) get wrong in the clinics. Like anything else, if you break it down and take it step by step, you can usually figure it out.

Ozzy:

I really need to get to bed because I just thought of something about the thread I linked in my post above. We all know that the run is "supposed" to count. What if, and I do mean if, the runner who is lally gagging from third to home plate, because the runner going from second to third has been tagged out after rounding third, decides to abandon his right to tag home and enters the dugout. What do we have? And what are we going to do?

MTD, Sr.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Ozzy:

I really need to get to bed because I just thought of something about the thread I linked in my post above. We all know that the run is "supposed" to count. What if, and I do mean if, the runner who is lally gagging from third to home plate, because the runner going from second to third has been tagged out after rounding third, decides to abandon his right to tag home and enters the dugout. What do we have? And what are we going to do?

MTD, Sr.

Good Question. If R3 is lolly gagging but still touches the plate, his run has to count. However, if R3 abandons, he may still touch the plate until he enters dead ball area (the dugout). This is an award not a base advancement.

Now if he enters the dugout, we are going to have a $hithouse because I am not going to count the run! R3 must touch the plate or if R3 becomes injured, a substitute must be brought in to touch the plate in order to complete the award.

[PeteBooth]

This is covered in OBR 4.09 EXCEPTION The terminology used is Refuses to touch home plate but abandoning the base and refusing to touch IMO are similiar so you would call the runner out and NOT count the run.

Also, I cannot remember who said it but Punish stupidity whenever possible

Pete Booth

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by SethPDX

Once the batter-runner touches 1B a play on him becomes a time play. That is, any runners that touch the plate before the batter-runner is put out will score. This includes an appeal play at a base other than 1B, as described in your play.

This is the best and most consise way I've heard/read this presented. Thanks PDX

[greymule]

Remember that while "no matter what" applies to the runner rounding 3B and being tagged out, it does not apply to every imaginable occurrence. The run does not count if the runner from 3B is declared out for entering DBT before touching home plate, or if another runner is declared out for some violation before the runner from 3B touches home.

[bobbybanaduck]

Originally Posted by greymule

snip...or if another runner is declared out for some violation before the runner from 3B touches home.

prove it.

[greymule]

prove it.

This forum has discussed "declared out versus put out" several times over the past few years. There are case plays. All my books (J/R, BRD, Evans, etc.) are packed up at the moment, but maybe somebody will chip in.

I remember specifically the case play in which the batter hits a 2-out grand slam but rounds 1B and passes R1 before R3 touches the plate. No run in that case. I can't see why the same principle wouldn't hold after a base on balls.