before we start (an equal opportunity post...)

[bobbybanaduck]

posted this on another site, but thought i'd throw it up here for those that don't do both...

the following took place at a legion state tourney game.

game one of three game set of first round in playoffs. 3 man crew. i ask to work 1B cuz i have an indy ball plate job the next night. assignor says no prob as he would prefer i be out on the bags to kinda direct traffic due to the lack of three man experience of the guys i am working with. i know the PU well. VP of my local association. the guy working 3B is fairly young, mid 20's i'd say. i've heard of him, but never met him.

so we head out to the field for the plate meeting, and everything is kosher. PU goes over his stuff, then asks if i have anything to add. i say, "yep. keep everyone and everything inside the dugouts, please. those guys sitting on the buckets gotta move back so their feet are inside." (the dugouts at this field sit at ground level. they are about 30 feet long, with about a 10 foot wide opening in the front for player access.) both managers say no problem and we break the meeting.

i head down the 1B line and out to short right. when i head to my starting position for the beginning of the game i notice that all three adult coaches on my side of the field are outside the dugout. i wait to see if they are headed inside, but they aren't. the PU points down to me to see if i'm ready (which i HATE, but that's another story for another day) and i hold my hand up to him shaking my head. he steps out and looks quizzically at me. i point to the coaches outside the dugout. he looks over and tells them they need to be inside. skipper apparently doesn't hear him, cuz he says, "what?" and starts walking out toward me. he asks, "can i have time?" (game hasn't even started yet... )

he walks out to me and says they have been outside all year and nobody has said anything. i inform him that i'm not overly interested in the rest of the year, and for this game everyone is going to be inside the dugout. he continues to argue with me about it and says that the district supervisor has been at most of their games this year and has made the players stay inside, but has never said anything about the coaches. my response to that was that i had spoken with him about the need to keep everyone inside, and he agreed with me. (i DID actually talk to him, though it was at the high school state tourney where the same guy was the TD.) he asks me the guys name cuz he thinks i'm making crap up or something, and i told him. he's agitated, but he now retreats. however, instead of going back to his dugout, he goes back to talk to the PU for a minute. i head back over to my starting position.

their meeting breaks up and he heads back over to the dugout. he sends his two coaches inside, but he stays out. PU points down to me again, and i again hold my hand up and shake my head. PU looks over at the dugout, then motions for me to come talk to him. i walk down and he says, "i told him that one guy could stay outside."

what do you do?

i'll tell you what i did later.

[socalblue1]

Hmm, eject head coach for showing me up, problem solved. Have a very one-sided discussion with partner after game?

[Paul L]

What do I do? I probably grimace inside and yield to my respected PU/association VP's judgment. And be ready to call any interference or obstruction that might occur on a play during the game. And yes, I discuss it with PU after the game. YMMV.

But I wouldn't have insisted on this point in the first place, especially without talking with my crewmates first. Even at this legion state tourney level. I know many umps on this site whose opinions I respect feel pretty strongly about coaches on buckets. Not a battle I feel worth fighting, and it may border on sweating small stuff. In my area and level, it's a customary perk for my mostly volunteer coaches that would be rude to refuse.

In my modest experience (400-500 games), I remember only one wayward coach who affected a play. Doofus defensive coach, who had wandered away from the usual bucket position halfway up the line, was hit by an overthrow at third. I called obstruction, awarded the runner home, with no complaint.

[Rags 11]

Maybe I'm reading into the beginning of the post, but to me, you're the crew chief.

When you're partner called you over, and told you HE said one coach could stay outside, that needs to be addressed in two ways:

Tell the PU that the coach doesn't get to take a survey of the crew, and then have the coach go inside with his staff.

No doubt the coach will eject himself, play on.

AR

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by socalblue1

Hmm, eject head coach for showing me up, problem solved. Have a very one-sided discussion with partner after game?

I like this, but I give skip one more chance. I first tell my partner what I told the manager. Next, I tell my partner that he needs to go tell the manager to get in the dugout. (In fact, I did something just like that this past season, and my partner was about 20 years senior to me.)

If skip wants to get in partner's face, well partner deserves that and can eject skip himself. If partner won't go, I'll eject him right now; but partner probably wont' like that. Once we've said everyone's in the dugout (at the frickin plate meeting no less!), everyone better be in the dugout.

[BigUmp56]

Bobby,


I'd have simply told my partner that I'd already told the manager that we wouldn't allow anyone out of the dugouts, and strongly suggest to him that he now go tell the manager that he didn't realize I'd told him this already, and we're not going to discuss it further. He's shooting you in the foot if he doesn't agree to back you here. And truth be told, if it were me and he didn't have my back on this, the game would now be worked as a two man............


Tim.

[umpjong]

During this brief meeting with PU, I would ask him, "are you sure this is how you want to handle this"?? If his answer is yes I take several deep breaths and go back to first, finish the game, and then after the game advise partner that I would not be working with him again. Also would submit a report to head assignor, also advising him of not having this subject as a partner again. Hopefully he will learn something, but if not, I would hope to at least say I kept my composure and handled my end of it professionally.

(If he ever would apologize and I thought he truly understood what he did, I would work with him later)

[bobbybanaduck]

Originally Posted by Paul L

I know many umps on this site whose opinions I respect feel pretty strongly about coaches on buckets. Not a battle I feel worth fighting, and it may border on sweating small stuff. In my area and level, it's a customary perk for my mostly volunteer coaches that would be rude to refuse.

some claification...

the buckets were outside the opposite dugout, and players were sitting on them. they were moved back inside as soon as the plate meeting ended. the issue i was trying to deal with was all three of the adult coaches on my side of the field were standing outside of (and not barely outside...waaaay outside) the dugout and milling around.

[SanDiegoSteve]

I don't have a problem with coaches on buckets in general. I do have a problem with coaches that don't follow my simple instructions. I also have a problem with a partner who doesn't feel the need to back me up when I've instructed said coaches to get in the dugout. I would have probably told the coach to get it in the dugout or start heading for the bus.

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by Paul L

What do I do? ... be ready to call any interference or obstruction that might occur on a play during the game.

I agree. Before every game I say to myself "Get ready, you might have to call interference or obstruction." It really gets me into the game

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

And truth be told, if it were me and he didn't have my back on this, the game would now be worked as a two man...........

So what do you expect the assignor/league president/athletic director to say when he finds out you walked off the field before the game was over?

[griff901c]

NO BUCKETS...period. If your tired..pull up some pine.

They (coaches) will be allowed outside of the dugout....not roaming...but outside none the less.


griff

[yawetag]

Originally Posted by LDUB

So what do you expect the assignor/league president/athletic director to say when he finds out you walked off the field before the game was over?

Actually, before the game even started! :P

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by LDUB

So what do you expect the assignor/league president/athletic director to say when he finds out you walked off the field before the game was over?

I'm not one to worry about what my assignor might think about something like this, Luke.


Tim.

[Tim C]

" . . . i know the PU well. VP of my local association."

OK, so here comes Mr. Arrogant:

I would walk into the the PU and say: "Hey Mark, how long have we known each other?

Mark: "Mmmm, 10 Years?"

Mr. A: "OK, let me get this straight you have just told this coach it was OK for him to be outside the dugout AFTER I told him he couldn't be out, right?

Mark: "Yep!"

Mr. A: "So not only are you going to over rule me and set aside a rule you have decided that our friendship can 'just end' right now and right here, right"?

Mark: "Well I told him it was OK . . . "

Mr. A: "OK, you have a choice right now: 1) tell him to get into the dugout or 2) I will not only leave this game right now and go home and leave you and your partner to do the game AND I will never work with you again or speak to you again. YOU MAKE THE CALL.

Perhaps this will be easy for him maybe he would rather NOT work with me again.

I am with BigUmp . . . my ball and I am going home.

Regards,