Got me thinking

[UmpTTS43]

While watching a game today, I was sitting with a friend of mine and he was asking me rules questions. Then we see this. Batted ball goes straight back, hits catchers mask and goes straight up about 10 ft in the air. The ball lands on the ground, foul ball. Then he asks me, "If the catcher would have caught that is that an out?"
"Nope, foul ball."
"Why?"
"It hit his mask first."
"What if the ball goes up first, like a regular pop foul, and the ball hits his mask while he is wearing it and he catches it before it hits the ground?"
"Out and the catcher is a dumba** for not taking his mask off."
"What's the difference?"

Obviously the ball made contact with the mask prior to the catch in both situations, but different results. It started to make me think about how I would justify a no catch call on the first sitch if the coach wanted an explanation per the rules. After searching my library, no J/R however, it was very difficult to find a rule to justify my call, but this is what I came up with:

A FOUL TIP is a batted ball that goes sharp and direct from the bat to the catcher’s hands and is legally caught. It is not a foul tip unless caught and any foul tip that is caught is a strike, and the ball is in play. It is not a catch if it is a rebound, unless the ball has first touched the catcher’s glove or hand.

By using the "sharp and direct" and "rebound," albeit off of the mask, I have formed my interpretation of the sitch and feel I could sell this to a reasonable coach.

Any thoughts or opinions? It's just my luck that J/R would cover this and make me look like the catcher leaving his mask on to catch a pop fly.

Every call should be explainable per the rules, hence my rant.

[johnnyg08]

foul tip has to touch glove first.

[Dave Reed]

Your interpretation and reasoning is correct.

Here's what J/R says: "A nicked pitch that initially strikes something other than the catcher's glove or hand (e.g. the ground, batter, umpire, mask, protector) cannot be a foul tip; it is simply a nick and foul."

NFHS 5-1-1d says: " Ball becomes dead immediately when:.....d. a foul ball (2-16-1):.....2. goes directly from the bat to the catcher’s protector, mask or person without first touching the catcher’s glove or hand;"
Note that 2-16-1 defines a foul ball as one " that, while on or over foul territory, touches the person of an umpire or a player or any object foreign to the natural ground;"

The NCAA rule is similar to OBR.

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

foul tip has to touch glove first.

Can you cite the relevent rule?

Here's what J/R says: "A nicked pitch that initially strikes something other than the catcher's glove or hand (e.g. the ground, batter, umpire, mask, protector) cannot be a foul tip; it is simply a nick and foul."

Like I said ... doh!

I might want to get me one of them J/R rule thingy books.

[bobbybanaduck]

2.00, definition of a foul tip. you don't need a j/r, you need to not neglect the early part of the rule book. start at the beginning, sir.

[bobbybanaduck]

and, to go back to your OP, the difference is (when explaining to your friend) one is a foul tip, which, by rule, has to go sharp and direct to the catcher's glove or hand first. the other is a fly ball, which, by rule, is still considered "in flight" when it deflects off of the catcher's mask.

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by bobbybanaduck

and, to go back to your OP, the difference is (when explaining to your friend) one is a foul tip, which, by rule, has to go sharp and direct to the catcher's glove or hand first. the other is a fly ball, which, by rule, is still considered "in flight" when it deflects off of the catcher's mask.

Not to pick hairs, but in the original op, the ball went sharp and direct into the catcher's helmet then straight up. I needed a rules interp that killed the ball the moment the ball hit the mask. I know what you are saying though.