Got me thinking

[SanDiegoSteve]

From Rule 2.00:

A FLY BALL is a batted ball that goes high in the air in flight.

A CATCH is the act of a fielder in getting secure possesion in his hand or glove of a ball in flight and firmly holding it; providing he does not use his cap, protector, pocket or any other part of his uniform in getting possession.

IN FLIGHT describes a batted, thrown, or pitched ball which has not yet touched the ground or some object other than a fielder.

A FIELDER is any defensive player.

The PERSON of a player or and umpire is any part of his body, his clothing or his equipment.

************************************************** ******

Therefore, a fly ball can be caught by the catcher after it hits his mask, which is part of his person. He just can't use his mask to make the catch, but it can bounce off of it.

[Dave Reed]

Steve,
Nice quotes and logic. The only thing is, the same rules and logic would show (incorrectly, we all know) that a batted ball which rebounds directly off the catcher's mask and is then gloved by the catcher is also an out. The ball became foul when it hit the mask, is still in flight (yes, it is still in flight, just like when the ball strikes the mask on the way down), and it was caught.

Of course, there is this other rule, regrettably mis-classified under the definition of a foul tip, that says the ball can't be legally caught. How does a rules novice or "purist" know which rule takes precedence?

See, if you know the rules, and you read a poorly written rule, it is easy to interpret it as confirming what you already know to be true. But if you're not sure about the rule, and the language is muddy, another source is helpful. In this case J/R is better than OBR, and FED makes the rule explicit.

An aside to bobbybanaduck: You accuse the OP of neglecting the early part of the rulebook. He is too polite to point out that he quoted and bolded the rule in question in his very first post. Obviously, he didn't neglect the early part.

[UmpTTS43]

Thanks Dave. I think you are the only one that understands my post. I thought that I explained it adequately. Your interp from the J/R was the exact thing I was looking for. That and to spark some intelligent conversation.

These types of plays demonstrate that the umpire needs to have an accepted interp when the coach's only reference to the rules is the OBR.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Dave Reed

Steve,
Nice quotes and logic. The only thing is, the same rules and logic would show (incorrectly, we all know) that a batted ball which rebounds directly off the catcher's mask and is then gloved by the catcher is also an out. The ball became foul when it hit the mask, is still in flight (yes, it is still in flight, just like when the ball strikes the mask on the way down), and it was caught.

I didn't address the foul tip/foul ball issue in my post. I was only showing that you can catch a fly ball after it hits a catcher's mask. The same rules and logic do not apply to a batted ball which rebounds directly off the catcher's mask. The definition of foul tip takes care of this situation, and distinguishes itself from the fly ball interpretation:

A FOUL TIP is a batted ball that goes sharp and direct from the bat to the catcher's hands and is legally caught. It is not a foul tip unless caught and any foul tip that is caught is a strike, and the ball is in play. It is not a catch if it is a rebound, unless the ball has first touched the catcher's glove or hand.

Therefore, the rule which applies to a fly ball hitting equipment, and the rule pertaining to a sharp and direct batted ball hitting equipment, are two separate rulings.

Is this logic just as sound?

[Nigel Tufnel]

Don't engage in rules conversations except for another blue.

Set your "friends" straight with common sense rules interps.

Act like you've been there, and then tell'em its their turn to buy.

(then sneak away and check the obr, just in case)

[Fritz]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

A FOUL TIP is a batted ball that goes sharp and direct from the bat to the catcher's hands and is legally caught. It is not a foul tip unless caught and any foul tip that is caught is a strike, and the ball is in play. It is not a catch if it is a rebound, unless the ball has first touched the catcher's glove or hand.

UmpTT - I am with ya bud, posted this exact same thing a month or so ago and was like you, looking for a rule ref to back up my understanding of the call. NFHS is clear but you can't quote that when playing OBR. And the problem I have with OBR is just what Steve quotes - the definition of a foul tip ceases to apply in your OP as soon as you get to the clause about "the catcher's hands." Everything after that in the FT definition would seem to apply only if the batted ball meets the first criteria (catcher's hands). Since the batted ball DID NOT go sharp and direct to the catcher's hands, you would think it now is classified as a Foul Ball because it touched something in foul territory (catcher's mask). And I can't find anything in OBR that says that a foul BALL is dead when it strikes a catcher's equipment - otherwise, that second portion of your OP (hits the mask on the way down) would kill it.

So we are left with adding to the Foul Tip definition isothat a batted ball that goes sharp and direct and touches anything (catcher, umpire, fence, bird, etc.) but the catcher's hands, is dead. Ya think OBR could edit that in during the next edition?

Did you all go to law school or something?

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by rei

Did you all go to law school or something?

It does seem that way sometimes, doesn't it?

[Nigel Tufnel]

In my day we use to call that a pop-up...
I can hear the call on the radio - Deep drive to Varitek , at the warning track , reaches up, off the mask and ....yes he got it...two away..

[johnnyg08]

There are lots of things not specifically covered in the OBR rule book...it's not in PBUC (the def of foul tip is in there with respect to a strike out where the ball might be caught or not) but that's all I could find there. I'd bet a shiny mythical quarter that J/R addresses this...and if I remember this was discussed at length on Rob Drake's old site and the pro guys on there said that if a foul tip were to be "caught" and remain live...it had to go off of F2's glove first...or, I suppose his bare hand...but if that's the case...you're going to have to make a catcher substitution as well.

[Dave Reed]

Originally Posted by Fritz

Ya think OBR could edit that in during the next edition?

And give us one less think to obsess over? No way.

Seriously, a ball hardly ever rebounds directly off the catcher's mask and is then caught. I've never seen it.

Consider that the folks that sometimes edit the OBR have just this year gotten around to better defining the path a runner may take between bases. (For years, OBR has said the runner has to follow a direct line between bases, and this phrasing of the rule meant that nearly every base runner was violating the rule as written.) Let's hope they give priority to improving the rules that are in use frequently.

[johnnyg08]

not a bad thought Dave Reed...and yes +1 to gross misunderstanding of the base line rule...

[Fritz]

Originally Posted by Dave Reed

Seriously, a ball hardly ever rebounds directly off the catcher's mask and is then caught. I've never seen it.

Well then, I hope it is another 12 years before I see it again then because I was behind the plate when it happened to me in June for the first time. Ball nicks the bat as batter swings (on 1-1 count I believe), deflects enough to miss the glove and hit the top part of the catcher's mask, pops almost straight up in the air about 15 feet, giving the catcher just enough time to toss the mask, look up and stick out his glove for the "3rd" out. I said "Foul, no catch" and explained to the DC that it was dead and foul as soon as it hit the mask. No real argument, but both my partner and I went to our books after the game because we were arguing, friendly, about where that rule would be found. To no avail -

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Fritz

No real argument, but both my partner and I went to our books after the game because we were arguing, friendly, about where that rule would be found. To no avail -

I thought we established where the rule is found. Rule 2.00 FOUL TIP says that a deflection off the mask is not a catch unless the ball first touches the glove. Umpiring 101. The fact that the ball went 15 feet into the air was totally irrelevant. It could have gone 100 feet in the air, or fell straight back into the glove. Same result, foul ball. Not exactly rocket science here.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Fritz

Since the batted ball DID NOT go sharp and direct to the catcher's hands, you would think it now is classified as a Foul Ball because it touched something in foul territory (catcher's mask). And I can't find anything in OBR that says that a foul BALL is dead when it strikes a catcher's equipment - otherwise, that second portion of your OP (hits the mask on the way down) would kill it.

The ball in the second part of the OP was not classified as a FOUL BALL, it was classified as a FLY BALL. That's why it can hit the mask first, because the mask is considered part of the player's person, and does not kill the ball on a FLY BALL when it gets hit. A FLY BALL is not considered either fair or foul until it is either a CATCH or a NO CATCH.

That's all that needed to be said: The FLY BALL bounced off the catcher's mask, then was caught. Perfectly legal.