Awarded bases - hit by pitch

[Blue316]

High school ball. Bottom of the 8th, game tied, bases loaded, 1 out. Batter hit by pitch. Batter touches first, runner on 3rd crosses the plate, both the runner who started on first and the runner who started on second does not advance to there awarded base. Defense appeals the runner did not touch second, I call him out, then they appeal the runner not touching third (runner on who started at 3rd has already crossed the plate), I call him out. Does the run score? I scored the run and game over. Now say that they appealed 3rd first and then 2nd. Now there would be 2 force outs, and would the run still score? I can not find anything in the rule book or casebook to help me out on this. I have asked may differnt umpires this, and all have no clue. Thanks

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by Blue316

High school ball. Bottom of the 8th, game tied, bases loaded, 1 out. Batter hit by pitch. Batter touches first, runner on 3rd crosses the plate, both the runner who started on first and the runner who started on second does not advance to there awarded base. Defense appeals the runner did not touch second, I call him out, then they appeal the runner not touching third (runner on who started at 3rd has already crossed the plate), I call him out. Does the run score? I scored the run and game over. Now say that they appealed 3rd first and then 2nd. Now there would be 2 force outs, and would the run still score? I can not find anything in the rule book or casebook to help me out on this. I have asked may differnt umpires this, and all have no clue. Thanks

Heres' the rule governing your situation

FED rule 9-1-1 NOTE 2

When the winning run is scored in the last half inning of a regulation game, or in the last half of an extra inning, as a result of a base on balls, hit batter or any other play with the bases loaded which forces the runner on third base to advance, the umpire SHALL NOT declare the game over until all runeers have advanced to the next base.

If the defense appealed properly, and the third out was the result of a force out - No runs would score - FED rule 9-1-1 Exception b

NOTE: In OBR, the game would be over

OBR 4.09 HOW A TEAM SCORES.
(b) When the winning run is scored in the last half inning of a regulation game, or in the last half of an extra inning, as the result of a base on balls, hit batter or any other play with the bases full which forces the runner on third to advance, the umpire shall not declare the game ended until the runner forced to advance from third has touched home base and the batter runner has touched first base.

Pete Booth

[greymule]

Is the order of the appeals relevant in Fed? That is, if the defense first appeals the runner from 1B for failing to reach 2B, does his being called out remove the force on the runner from 2B going to 3B?

[PeteBooth]

]Originally posted by greymule

Is the order of the appeals relevant in Fed? That is, if the defense first appeals the runner from 1B for failing to reach 2B, does his being called out remove the force on the runner from 2B going to 3B?

The order does matter check out Case Play 9-1-1k
With no outs and the bases loaded, B1 grounds into a 6-4-3 DP as r3/r2 score. R2 misses third base and is declared out upon appeal for the third out.

Ruling: R2's out is not a force out for the third out, therefore, r3's run counts.

I remember reading (or at least I think I do) that in NCAA, the Force remains in effect throughout the entire play, so in NCAA r3's run would not count since at the beginning of the play R2 was forced to go to third.

Perhaps Papa C or Bob Jenkins can confirm.

Pete Booth

[greymule]

I'm aware of 9.1.1K. In that case, the force at 3B was removed because the runner missed 3B AFTER a following runner was put out at a previous base. So I guess in Blue316's question, though we're not actually dealing with a missed base, the order of appeal does matter. Missed bases and bases never reached might be different, since a runner misses a base at a specific time but can't be said to have failed to reach a base at a specific time.

In Fed, if the runner was forced at the time he missed the base, then a following runner being put out would not remove the force on appeal. For example, R1 on 3B, R2 on 1B, one out. B3 hits double, misses 1B, R2 goes to 3B but missed 2B. Since both were forced at the time they missed the base, the order of appeal there would be irrelevant. Even if the defense appeals 1B first, the force at 2B would remain in effect and R1's run would be disallowed. If that's wrong, somebody please let me know.

In NCAA, if R1 is on 1B and B2 hits a ground ball to F3, and F3 steps on 1B to retire B2, that removes the force on R1. The play at 2B is then a tag play. Now if F3's throw to 2B is wild and R1 misses 2B and makes it safely to 3B, is an appeal at 2B then a force play? Does the force that existed at 2B at the beginning of the play--but that was removed before the runner missed 2B--remain throughout the play for the purpose of appeal?

I've read BRD's explanation 17 times and thought I had it straight, but now I'm unsure. The answer will probably be obvious when I read it for the 18th time. Unfortunately, I don't have the BRD with me.

[Bfair]

Originally posted by PeteBooth
]Originally posted by greymule

Is the order of the appeals relevant in Fed? That is, if the defense first appeals the runner from 1B for failing to reach 2B, does his being called out remove the force on the runner from 2B going to 3B?

The order does matter check out Case Play 9-1-1k
With no outs and the bases loaded, B1 grounds into a 6-4-3 DP as r3/r2 score. R2 misses third base and is declared out upon appeal for the third out.

Ruling: R2's out is not a force out for the third out, therefore, r3's run counts.

I remember reading (or at least I think I do) that in NCAA, the Force remains in effect throughout the entire play, so in NCAA r3's run would not count since at the beginning of the play R2 was forced to go to third.

Perhaps Papa C or Bob Jenkins can confirm.

Pete Booth

Pete, I'd agree with you that in Fed the order does matter, but I'd offer a different reason than that exampled by your referenced caseplay. However, your caseplay supports my reason.

Fed 2-29-3 supplies some basics regarding removal of a force.
First, when any specific runner is forced, if a following runner is putout at a previous base (meaning a base which THAT runner was also forced to), then the force condition would be removed from the specific runner. That is what your caseplay shows.

However, 2-29-3 also states that when a player misses a base, the force remains in effect. It does not state, however, that the force could not later be removed in accordance with 2-29-3. Therefore, when appealing baserunning infractions by multiple runners, it is still possible for a following runner to be putout at a previous base through appeal. Thus, the importance of appealing in proper order.

The major question with that interpretation is the definition of a putout.
Fed 2-24-2 reads:

A putout is the act of a fielder in retiring a batter or runner. For putouts credited to the catcher and to other fielders, see 9-5-2. An "out" is one of the three required retirements of players of the team at bat.

I believe that since the defense must appeal, the out would be a result ot their act. That being so in comparison to an umpire declaring a runner out for abandonment---which woudl be a result of the umpire's action resulting from the offensive act. Of course, the Fed wording should be corrected to "act of the defensive team" since a coach can now appeal to obtain an out---and he is not a fielder.

Now, some may take exception to the way I look at this, yet it adds logic to the OBR interpretation regarding the order of appeal. It also stays within the Fed's existing wording regarding force removal, and it is consistent with their published caseplays. That caseplay consistency includes examples of where following runners are retired at a previous base, and where following are retired at a base beyond a "previous" base.

The specific issue, to the best of my knowledge, remains not specifically addressed by Fed caseplay.


Just my opinion,

Freix



[Edited by Bfair on Apr 17th, 2002 at 02:57 PM]

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by greymule
Is the order of the appeals relevant in Fed? That is, if the defense first appeals the runner from 1B for failing to reach 2B, does his being called out remove the force on the runner from 2B going to 3B?

There's no official FED ruling.

Consequently, I would rule by analogy and say the order of appeals does matter. That's what I say at Section 12 in the BRD.

FED rules. Bases loaded. B1 is HBP. R3 advances and B1 advances. R2 and R1 do not advance.

Defense appeals first R2, then R1: no run scores.
Defense appeals first R1, then R2: run scores.

The FED and OBR are very clear: When a preceding runner is put out BEFORE a baserunning error occurs, the force is no longer in effect.

That is not the case for appeals, which is why I sought an official interpretation from PBUC. PBUC extended the live action force removal to appeals. I understand why: It means the defense must be smart enough to appeal properly. If they aren't, why reward them?

Failing a definitive FED ruling (and there is none), umpires should adopt any official ruling available. It makes for consistent officiating.

[Blue316]

I am new to this web site and was wondering what some of your abb. are:

OBR?
BRD?
PBUC?

I know it is a stupid question. I would like to thank everyone that responded here.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by Blue316
I am new to this web site and was wondering what some of your abb. are:

OBR?
BRD?
PBUC?

I know it is a stupid question. I would like to thank everyone that responded here.

OBR: Official Baseball Rules. That's the "book" you're using to make your rulings.

BRD: Baseball Rule Differences, a reference work that lists and explains all the differences among high school, college (NCAA and NAIA), and professional rules. You may purchase it at this Website: https://www.rightsports.com/products.php

PBUC: That's the Professional Baseball Umpire Corp, which is responsible for minor league umpires. Their umpire manual lists many of the official interpretations used in amateur baseball.

You must be new to the Internet, not just this Website because those are standard abbreviations in use all over the World Wide Web.