pickoff at 2nd, what's the call?

[SanDiegoSteve]

Since when is it required to slide back into 2nd on a pickoff? How is this criteria for judging the play?

Either his momentum took him off the base or it didn't. Period. If it did, he's out. If F6 contacting him was the only force that removed him from the base, he is safe.

I'll bet if I leaned on you hard enough, you'd fall....

[chuckfan1]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Well, it's why you can't tell the answer to the question without seeing the play. I've called time for a fielder pushing through a runner this year and also called a runner out for going in standing up, easliy coming off from a normal tag, and being tagged out.

This wasnt "easlily" coming off the bag

[chuckfan1]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

I wasn't there, but I disagree with you assessment.



To me it says he didnt' slide.




Again, as demonstrated by your use of "then", you are assuming that this all took some time to happen. In my experience pick-off attempts happen quickly. with most action occurring near simulataneously; not runner gets back... pitcher throws...fielder gloves ball.



A lean caused a stable runner to fall....I don't think so. Throw caused the lean? Who cares?

He didnt slide? So? If he has gotten back to the base, and is in control, slide or no, you cant ding him for that.
I realize this play didnt take long, but, if the post says "back" to the bag, and standing on the bag, and the fielder gets the throw, THEN makes contact, it wasnt a true banger.

Agreed, without seeing the play, we cant fully tell. But from the evidence given it appears it was the shortstops actions that caused the runner to come off. Not the runner not being in control and on the base.
And any Big Dawg official will tell you thats the way it should be judged, not because he didnt slide, and not because it was a banger.

..Coach: "hey you called my guy out? He was standing on the bag, and the shortstop took him off, why is that out?"

Mr Umpire:.."Uhh Coach, he didnt slide".
Does that fit the play?

I do not believe that incidental contact on this play is in the spirit of the rules, whether it is covered directly or not.

Now, a runner and fielder trying to field a ball collide and the fielder falls on the runner preventing him advancing, different story. But a fielder going to catch a ball knocks a guy off of the bag then tags him?

Calling an out is just lazy umpiring. You are looking to go home early, and I hope you are never my partner.

[mbyron]

Htbt.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by chuckfan1

He didnt slide? So? If he has gotten back to the base, and is in control, slide or no, you cant ding him for that.
I realize this play didnt take long, but, if the post says "back" to the bag, and standing on the bag, and the fielder gets the throw, THEN makes contact, it wasnt a true banger.

Agreed, without seeing the play, we cant fully tell. But from the evidence given it appears it was the shortstops actions that caused the runner to come off. Not the runner not being in control and on the base.
And any Big Dawg official will tell you thats the way it should be judged, not because he didnt slide, and not because it was a banger.

..Coach: "hey you called my guy out? He was standing on the bag, and the shortstop took him off, why is that out?"

Mr Umpire:.."Uhh Coach, he didnt slide".
Does that fit the play?

Jesus. I never said not sliding was the reason for anything. I said that when I read "he went in standing up" all it meant to me was that he didn't slide. I was saying I read nothing more into it.

I am, saying, in the real world, at the levels of big boy ball I have worked, that play happens bang/bang....not as a devleoping "happening",. and in that sceario, I've got an out. If that means you disagree and Rei never works with me, I'm okay with that.

Before you twist anything else, I'll just withdraw from this thread.

[umpduck11]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Why don't we just give the fielder a gun and have him steal the runner's wallet and gold links while we're at it then?

Because if it's a FED game, the runner shouldn't be wearing gold links in the first place ?

[chuckfan1]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

Jesus. I never said not sliding was the reason for anything. I said that when I read "he went in standing up" all it meant to me was that he didn't slide. I was saying I read nothing more into it.

I am, saying, in the real world, at the levels of big boy ball I have worked, that play happens bang/bang....not as a devleoping "happening",. and in that sceario, I've got an out. If that means you disagree and Rei never works with me, I'm okay with that.

Before you twist anything else, I'll just withdraw from this thread.

Easy Luciano...no reason to retire from the thread, all opinions are welcome, thats what makes it fun, and guys can learn.
I believe you mentioned it twice, about the sliding thing, which, to me, implies it had something to do with the play. Which it shouldnt. No prob.
And you continue to mention how this type of play is bang-bang. All Im saying is so? But, everything in the post seems to indicate it wasnt a true banger.
All Im saying is, on judgement plays we go with the information we are presented with. If a fielder makes an off-line throw to first, and we have to adjust, we are not getting the best look we can, the best information.
On this play, we are going with the information given in the post.
This play should only be judged on one thing. What caused the runner to come off the base.
Was he not stable on the bag, the SS makes a routine play, they both came off, and a tag? An out.
or...
as in this play, the post seems to indicate the runner was on the bag, and based on the post, the runner had the bag, and the throw took the SS into the runner AFTER he caught the throw, off-balance..etc
Yes a judgement call. But judgement should be based on experience, training, knowledge.
A runner appearing to have control of his body, and the bag, and the SS trying to receive the throw, and that throw taking him into the runner. How could you not have a safe??

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

No.

Bob:

I don't want to beat a dead horse, but if R2 has returned to second base. He is standing on second base and has complete control of his body and F4 is standing behind him and attempts to reach around R2 and knocks R2 to the ground to catch F2's throw, you are going to allow him to tag R2 out?

R2 bas done what he is supposed to do: Return to second base before F2's throw reaches F4 in time to tag R2 out.

MTD, Sr.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by chuckfan1

as in this play, the post seems to indicate the runner was on the bag, and based on the post, the runner had the bag, and the throw took the SS into the runner AFTER he caught the throw, off-balance..etc

Again, I disagree with your assement of the play.

Yes a judgement call. But judgement should be based on experience, training, knowledge.

Which is exactly what I have been doing. In my experience this play happens at once, not in stages, and my training and experience has me calling the out.

A runner appearing to have control of his body, and the bag, and the SS trying to receive the throw,

Says who? That's how you read it. That's not how I read it. That's the basis or our disgreement. Neither of us were there and we are intepreting the OP differently.

I can live with that, can you?

and that throw taking him into the runner. How could you not have a safe??

As stated so well by you above: experience, training and knowldege.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

Before you twist anything else, I'll just withdraw from this thread.

Oh, you know you won't.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Oh, you know you won't.

I was invited back by the gentlemen with whom I have been conversing. If that violates protocal, let me know.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Hey, I'm just having fun, unlike some others who feel the need to be mean spirited all the time.

For the record, I agree with you most of the time, just not this time.

[LMan]

Originally Posted by rei

Safe. There is no way I am calling the runner out. Bad joojoo can only follow an out call.

"Jobu no like curve ball"

[LMan]

[QUOTE=chuckfan1]

Originally Posted by LMan

Never pass up a chance to get an out.

....And I wish you continued success in your career as UIC in your local Parks and Recreation League. Calling that play an out at a higher level wont have you there long...

Your sarcasm attempt was every bit as lame as your failure to note the emoticon I used.