paid little league umps banned

[umpjong]

Originally Posted by noleump

The point I'm trying to make is that they are punishing the wrong umpires.Try to think of it from the IRS standpoint.
1. Umpires who recieve gift certificates for working games ( no taxes paid because it is a gift)
2. Umpires who were billing the leagues and paying taxes on their earnings through subcontrator form 1099

I think that if you recieve money or gift certificates it is compesation and should be taxed therfore those who recieved the gift certificates as payment are guilty of fraud. just my opinion.

You are joking, right?? This is pretty funny...

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by umpjong

You are joking, right?? This is pretty funny...

I think that fraud is too strong of a word BUT if you are given a gift certificate instead of money for officiating the value of the gift certificate is the same as being paid that amount of cash and is supposed to be reported as income on a Schedule C.

MTD, Sr.

[noleump]

Mark
I know this sounds like a joke to some , but to those umps that worked all season some paid games ,some not, only to find out that they cant work alstars is a kick in the (you know what).
Here's a point to ponder .If this is little leaguges policy ,their policy is encouraging the wrong thing is all I'm saying.
This is a big baseball organization,possibly the largest in the world.To have a policy that says gifts are okay to take but to take pay isn't okay is wrong.
I'll give you an example; two home building contractors making $100,000 a year each. one decides he's tired of giving his money to the government in income taxes . He tells his customers " Instead of paying invoices just give me a gift and if you give me enough I will continue to work for you if not I quit". The other contractor pays his taxes and continues to do his business the same way. Now the government has a big job they need done and they hire the contractor that doesnt pay taxes over the one that does.
Does that clear anything up?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by noleump

Mark
Does that clear anything up?

No.

The government will "hire" the contractor who didn't pay taxes because s/he's also being provided room and board by the government at Leavenworth.

[noleump]

Bob,
Let me guess you are a Little league ump who was paid in gift certificates .
I got a twist to this story now.The umps were told if they pay back the league which paid them they could work in the alstars tournament. Could those leagues then return the returned money into gift certificates ? would this money laundring scheme be okay in little league policy?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by noleump

Bob,
Let me guess you are a Little league ump who was paid in gift certificates .
I got a twist to this story now.The umps were told if they pay back the league which paid them they could work in the alstars tournament. Could those leagues then return the returned money into gift certificates ? would this money laundring scheme be okay in little league policy?

Not a good guess. I worked two years of LL in the early 1980s. I got paid.

My point was generally the same as Mark's -- whether you are paid in cash, a check at the game, periodic checks by an association or in "gift certificates" it's pay accoridng to the IRS and should be reported on your tax forms.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by noleump

Mark
I know this sounds like a joke to some , but to those umps that worked all season some paid games ,some not, only to find out that they cant work alstars is a kick in the (you know what).
Here's a point to ponder .If this is little leaguges policy ,their policy is encouraging the wrong thing is all I'm saying.
This is a big baseball organization,possibly the largest in the world.To have a policy that says gifts are okay to take but to take pay isn't okay is wrong.
I'll give you an example; two home building contractors making $100,000 a year each. one decides he's tired of giving his money to the government in income taxes . He tells his customers " Instead of paying invoices just give me a gift and if you give me enough I will continue to work for you if not I quit". The other contractor pays his taxes and continues to do his business the same way. Now the government has a big job they need done and they hire the contractor that doesnt pay taxes over the one that does.
Does that clear anything up?

noleump:

You are missing my point. I did not comment on the pros and cons of LL not using paid umpires. My comment dealt only with the fact that receiving a gift card for services rendered is the same as receiving cash and needs to be reported as income. Example: When I have officiated AAU National Basketball Tournaments. My hotel room was free. If the value was the room was $50 per night, I declared $50 per night as income on my Schedule C and then $50 per night as a lodging deduction on my Schedule C. This is perfectly legal and what the IRS expects one to do. The gift card that the umpire received from the LL organization for services rendered is compensation for services rendered and must be declared as income.

Now if you want to discuss unpaid vs. paid umpires for LL, I want to be paid for my services, PERIOD!! I think that is wonderful that the coaches, parents, and league officials donate their time, but umpires are professionals needed to adjudicate the game and should be compensated on a per game basis. I do not buy into LL's position that a true umpires will donate his time. Tell that to my liability insurance carrier when I am hit with a frivolous lawsuit by a sue happy parent and his lawyer.

MTD, Sr.

[Shubox]

Hi,

I have been lurking for around 3 months now and had to make an account today to chime in on this post.

I am involved with my local little league and am on the board of directors. It is so hard finding umpires to work for the $25 that we can afford to pay a game. We have 450 kids and 4 fields. Our senior field is the same dimensions as wrigley field and we need to pay 2 umpires per game for those. The only free umpires we get is when one of us board members have to step in and ump because no one showed up.

We 2 board members quit the board because they wanted to be paid to umpire. I do not blame them but one of them is the little league district umpire in chief. Kind of a smack to the face to the little league policy of volunteering .

Anyway love the site keep up the discussions some of it is rubbing off

[jicecone]

Every year since Jesus played in the first LL world series, (his team of course won), the LL organization has cared more about one thing, than the umps getting paid, their own image, who wins or loses, what is or is not compensation and the good of the sport, and that is, how much revenue they bring from TV.

If you believe otherwise, I got some good land in Florda for a cheap price, just waiting for you to buy.

[LMan]

Originally Posted by jicecone

Every year since Jesus played in the first LL world series, (his team of course won), the LL organization has cared more about one thing, than the umps getting paid, their own image, who wins or loses, what is or is not compensation and the good of the sport, and that is, how much revenue they bring from TV.

If you believe otherwise, I got some good land in Florda for a cheap price, just waiting for you to buy.

..and when you finish buying that land, you can make another trip to CDP

[kylejt]

I think that is wonderful that the coaches, parents, and league officials donate their time, but umpires are professionals needed to adjudicate the game and should be compensated on a per game basis.

But umpires need not be "professionals". It's not rocket science. IMO, being a Player Agent in a local LL is FAR more complicated and time consuming than working a Majors dish a couple times a week. Not even close.

I've got no problem with anyone taking money for any game, anywhere. But LL can afford to be selective on who umpires games at certain levels because there's a huge pool to choose from.

[noleump]

The reason I started this thread was to hear what you thought about paid umpires told stories about gift certificates were allowed and pay was not allowed. As most of you have pointed out it is the same thing. So why do the guys who recieve gift certificates rat on the guys who got paid?Then they sit at that table in front of everyone(the one where the microphone and trophys are) at the anual banquet and act like their poop dont stink.From what I heard is a policy that is not written anywhere and no person from williamsport will validate.Shame on you!!!!!!!In my book thats called being a hypocrite .
Thanks to all who stayed on topic.
I guess its one of those things where you cant fight city hall.As a bystander I just want to slap those rats who are so called in charge and hug the guys left out of alstars.
Supply and demand is a great analagy for this as one of you pointed out.Perhaps the guys when asked to work next season will say "no f*****n way!

[Rich]

Originally Posted by noleump

The reason I started this thread was to hear what you thought about paid umpires told stories about gift certificates were allowed and pay was not allowed. As most of you have pointed out it is the same thing. So why do the guys who recieve gift certificates rat on the guys who got paid?Then they sit at that table in front of everyone(the one where the microphone and trophys are) at the anual banquet and act like their poop dont stink.From what I heard is a policy that is not written anywhere and no person from williamsport will validate.Shame on you!!!!!!!In my book thats called being a hypocrite .
Thanks to all who stayed on topic.
I guess its one of those things where you cant fight city hall.As a bystander I just want to slap those rats who are so called in charge and hug the guys left out of alstars.
Supply and demand is a great analagy for this as one of you pointed out.Perhaps the guys when asked to work next season will say "no f*****n way!

Or maybe those who accept money will play by the rules.

Anyone who umpires Little League on a regular basis knows what the policies are for their area. If you knew this going in, you know why you weren't selected. If not selected this year, then you know what you have to do next year -- either not accept money or work somewhere else.

[kylejt]

Originally Posted by noleump

The reason I started this thread was to hear what you thought about paid umpires told stories about gift certificates were allowed and pay was not allowed.

Gift certificates, hats, shirts, equipment, hot dogs or cash (which is just as good as money) are all the same. It's compensation for your time. A "thank you", if you will.

I work for a defense contractor, and we have very specific guidelines as to how much of a "thank you" we can give our customers. I think it's down to $5 now. And that's a cheap pen. No more wining and dining the generals and admirals, everything's reportable. LL should have the same standard, IF they wish to be consistent. If not, then they should shut up about it, IMO.

I'm a UIC of a local. I've given NB plate shoes and WV Golds to my volunteer guys. Is that payment? Damn right it is. How about those embroidered Honig's shirt I get for tourney work? Yep. Hats, pins and all the popcorn chicken my patent leather belt will allow. Yes sir, that's payment.

Now, here's my real beef. Why is anyone whining about this? Why are people lining up to do these games, and then complaining about the process to get there? It is what it is. I mean, PAID umpires are in such short supply, and some of you are complaining about being shut out of volunteering for LL games. STFU!

[HokieUmp]

Originally Posted by noleump

Mark
I know this sounds like a joke to some , but to those umps that worked all season some paid games ,some not, only to find out that they cant work alstars is a kick in the (you know what).
Here's a point to ponder .If this is little leaguges policy ,their policy is encouraging the wrong thing is all I'm saying.

Maybe so, but it's also not news, either. H3ll, I've only been back in the US for 18 months, and I'd heard this "news" more than once since then. (Oz just started LL, from what I understand - or, more accurately, LL hasn't been all over the country there yet.) So how much of a kick in the groin is that, really?

So if you want to "rise" to the top at Williamsport, work for free all year. Good luck with that.