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Old Fri Jul 04, 2008, 03:51pm
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paid little league umps banned

Our little league district have chosen not to use some of their veteren umpires for alstar season, because they were paid through an umpire agency.
I was told that little league policy was that it was ok if you recieved gift certificates from leagues within the district from honigs ,outback, and duffys for services as an umpire. After more investigation almost all of the district staff had recieved gift certificates. This is my question for any who read this thread. Isnt being paid through a gift an ilegall act called fraud and being paid through an organization then the umpires recieving a 1099 form at the end of the year a legall way of paying them?Does little league have this one backwards?
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Old Fri Jul 04, 2008, 05:32pm
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I once heard of an umpire who was selected to do a high level (Regional, I believe) traveled to the site but was asked to go home because it was discovered that he had been paid to work LL baseball games.

It was policy in the District I worked in to not select umpires who were paid to work LL games for District and above games. "Pay" was interpreted as receiving money for services, not other types of 'recognition' for service to the league and district.
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Old Fri Jul 04, 2008, 06:05pm
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Yes, otherwise the "hot dog and coke" could be construed as "pay for services." Sheesh.

Like Bob P just said, I think District is where they draw the line. Many Little Leagues do not have qualified "free" umpires at the local level, so they have to employ paid umpires. Once an all-star team advances to the District level, the volunteer umpires are a dime-a-dozen. Scratch that, 10 cents less a dozen than that!
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Old Fri Jul 04, 2008, 06:20pm
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This is one of the reasons many people will not deal with LL. I know of a father and son who worked for their local LL, got paid for the games they did and went to a regional clinic for training "All Star Umpires". They were charged $45 a piece for the clinic, $35 for the post season uniform shirts and hats and $5 for and "entry fee". When it came time for post season assignments, they were told that because they were "paid" for seasonal work, they were ineligible to work the post season. The Eastern Regional office in Bristol, CT, refused to reimburse them for all the money they paid out for the post season stuff. These guys were pretty good umpires so I talked them into training for our High School board. They have been with us for almost ten years now and never did another LL game!
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Old Fri Jul 04, 2008, 09:24pm
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The point I'm trying to make is that they are punishing the wrong umpires.Try to think of it from the IRS standpoint.
1. Umpires who recieve gift certificates for working games ( no taxes paid because it is a gift)
2. Umpires who were billing the leagues and paying taxes on their earnings through subcontrator form 1099

I think that if you recieve money or gift certificates it is compesation and should be taxed therfore those who recieved the gift certificates as payment are guilty of fraud. just my opinion.
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Old Fri Jul 04, 2008, 10:04pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noleump
The point I'm trying to make is that they are punishing the wrong umpires.Try to think of it from the IRS standpoint.
1. Umpires who recieve gift certificates for working games ( no taxes paid because it is a gift)
2. Umpires who were billing the leagues and paying taxes on their earnings through subcontrator form 1099

I think that if you recieve money or gift certificates it is compesation and should be taxed therfore those who recieved the gift certificates as payment are guilty of fraud. just my opinion.
You are joking, right?? This is pretty funny...
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Old Fri Jul 04, 2008, 10:13pm
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Originally Posted by umpjong
You are joking, right?? This is pretty funny...

I think that fraud is too strong of a word BUT if you are given a gift certificate instead of money for officiating the value of the gift certificate is the same as being paid that amount of cash and is supposed to be reported as income on a Schedule C.

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Old Sat Jul 05, 2008, 07:44am
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Mark
I know this sounds like a joke to some , but to those umps that worked all season some paid games ,some not, only to find out that they cant work alstars is a kick in the (you know what).
Here's a point to ponder .If this is little leaguges policy ,their policy is encouraging the wrong thing is all I'm saying.
This is a big baseball organization,possibly the largest in the world.To have a policy that says gifts are okay to take but to take pay isn't okay is wrong.
I'll give you an example; two home building contractors making $100,000 a year each. one decides he's tired of giving his money to the government in income taxes . He tells his customers " Instead of paying invoices just give me a gift and if you give me enough I will continue to work for you if not I quit". The other contractor pays his taxes and continues to do his business the same way. Now the government has a big job they need done and they hire the contractor that doesnt pay taxes over the one that does.
Does that clear anything up?
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Old Sat Jul 05, 2008, 07:51am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noleump
Mark
Does that clear anything up?
No.

The government will "hire" the contractor who didn't pay taxes because s/he's also being provided room and board by the government at Leavenworth.
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Old Sat Jul 05, 2008, 08:48am
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Bob,
Let me guess you are a Little league ump who was paid in gift certificates .
I got a twist to this story now.The umps were told if they pay back the league which paid them they could work in the alstars tournament. Could those leagues then return the returned money into gift certificates ? would this money laundring scheme be okay in little league policy?

Last edited by noleump; Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 08:59am.
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Old Sat Jul 05, 2008, 09:38am
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First, you're not going to see this in writing from Williamsport. Plus, each area does it differently. Some regionals just don't care. Others, like SoCal, will frog march "offenders" off the property if your fellow umpires rat you out. And they will.

LL is, in theory per the rulebook, is an adult, volunteer work project. "There is no sound reason to pay umpires, or any other person whose services should be provided on a volunteer basis." says the book, for those that care to read it. Like it, or not, that's their stand.

Some umpires make a big deal about working post season games. If it's that huge to you, don't take compensation for LL games. Me, I don't care about working a TV game. If my local district needs help, I'm there. If not, I'll be a fan and watch the game. I've gone as far as Division, and it's not a goal of mine to work any further.

LL can afford to pick and chose who works games at the regional level. It's a simple supply and demand thing.
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Old Sat Jul 05, 2008, 10:12am
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Originally Posted by kylejt
LL can afford to pick and chose who works games at the regional level. It's a simple supply and demand thing.
They can right now, but that might change with all the expense is costs to work any game at any level.

Does LL not allow ESPN to pay their employees to cover their games? Volunteer is great if you are talking about coaches and certain people, but not for something like umpiring which is after all a service.

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Old Sat Jul 05, 2008, 10:20am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
They can right now, but that might change with all the expense is costs to work any game at any level.

Does LL not allow ESPN to pay their employees to cover their games? Volunteer is great if you are talking about coaches and certain people, but not for something like umpiring which is after all a service.

Peace
The guys that run Little League and the regions do so as a full time job. They are paid. According to LL, about 60 people are paid and, by the way, the top people earn six figure salaries.

I have a friend who worked the LLWS in Williamsport last year. They put him in a hotel room (alone, so he could bring his wife or anyone he chose), gave him a stipend for meals, and most of his expenses were covered.

I've worked a regional. I was provided a room and I paid a small supplement so it could be a solo room (I travel for business and sharing a hotel room with a stranger is not something I'd relish). We were given meal tickets for the field which, frankly, I never completely used.

Fair is decided by those who get to do the choosing. If you don't like their terms, no matter what region and what terms, don't work the games.
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Old Sat Jul 05, 2008, 10:29am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN
The guys that run Little League and the regions do so as a full time job. They are paid. According to LL, about 60 people are paid and, by the way, the top people earn six figure salaries.

I have a friend who worked the LLWS in Williamsport last year. They put him in a hotel room (alone, so he could bring his wife or anyone he chose), gave him a stipend for meals, and most of his expenses were covered.

I've worked a regional. I was provided a room and I paid a small supplement so it could be a solo room (I travel for business and sharing a hotel room with a stranger is not something I'd relish). We were given meal tickets for the field which, frankly, I never completely used.

Fair is decided by those who get to do the choosing. If you don't like their terms, no matter what region and what terms, don't work the games.
You are right that the any of us can decide whether to work the games, but when you expect things so drastically different from a segment of the operation that would get paid normally, without these stupid conditions, then you drastically limit the pool. In turn drastically limits the talent you have to make your organization look good. And maybe that is why regular umpires cringe when they watch LL games on TV.

It is not my organization and I personally do not care what they do. But I know I would want the best people at what they do available to work our most important games. And as you suggest if everyone else that is running the tournament getting paid, why not the umpires?

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Old Sat Jul 05, 2008, 11:01am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noleump
Mark
I know this sounds like a joke to some , but to those umps that worked all season some paid games ,some not, only to find out that they cant work alstars is a kick in the (you know what).
Here's a point to ponder .If this is little leaguges policy ,their policy is encouraging the wrong thing is all I'm saying.
This is a big baseball organization,possibly the largest in the world.To have a policy that says gifts are okay to take but to take pay isn't okay is wrong.
I'll give you an example; two home building contractors making $100,000 a year each. one decides he's tired of giving his money to the government in income taxes . He tells his customers " Instead of paying invoices just give me a gift and if you give me enough I will continue to work for you if not I quit". The other contractor pays his taxes and continues to do his business the same way. Now the government has a big job they need done and they hire the contractor that doesnt pay taxes over the one that does.
Does that clear anything up?

noleump:

You are missing my point. I did not comment on the pros and cons of LL not using paid umpires. My comment dealt only with the fact that receiving a gift card for services rendered is the same as receiving cash and needs to be reported as income. Example: When I have officiated AAU National Basketball Tournaments. My hotel room was free. If the value was the room was $50 per night, I declared $50 per night as income on my Schedule C and then $50 per night as a lodging deduction on my Schedule C. This is perfectly legal and what the IRS expects one to do. The gift card that the umpire received from the LL organization for services rendered is compensation for services rendered and must be declared as income.

Now if you want to discuss unpaid vs. paid umpires for LL, I want to be paid for my services, PERIOD!! I think that is wonderful that the coaches, parents, and league officials donate their time, but umpires are professionals needed to adjudicate the game and should be compensated on a per game basis. I do not buy into LL's position that a true umpires will donate his time. Tell that to my liability insurance carrier when I am hit with a frivolous lawsuit by a sue happy parent and his lawyer.

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