Foot Outside The Box

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

yep, continue to beat up on 19 year old umpires who are umpiring either for free or next to nothing...if you're lucky...maybe he'll quit by the end of the season and you'll have to go through the same crap next year when another aspiring rookie gives it a whirl

Not sure what this is all about. This 19 year old is umpiring for free or next to nothing? Well, you certainly get what you pay for. I don't feel sorry for the leagues that hire these guys trying to save a buck, and I don't feel sorry for people who attempt to officiate without bothering to at least learn a few basic rules and who make up crap as they go along. If he wasn't sure what the rule was, he should have stopped and consulted the rules, or asked one of the probably many people there what the proper ruling was.

Starman wasn't beating up on the guy. He said that the kid did pretty good on balls and strikes. But he does need to read at least some of the rules before going out on the field and ruining peoples' day.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

If he wasn't sure what the rule was, he should have stopped and consulted the rules, or asked one of the probably many people there what the proper ruling was.

Maybe it's the difference between the pace of baseball as opposed to basketball, but I can't imagine stopping a game long enough to either open up a rules book or consult with someone off the field (even if I know he's a respected official).

Once the game starts, you go with what you got on the field as far as rules knowledge. I can't imagine it's just basketball, but I know a lot of officials who kick rules early in their careers. He11, I ,know a lot of officials who kick the occasional rule late in their careers.

Isn't what youth ball is for (from an officiating perspective)?

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

But he does need to read at least some of the rules before going out on the field and ruining peoples' day.

I'd agree he obviously needs to brush up on the rules, but does he need to be perfect before ever stepping behind the plate?

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Maybe it's the difference between the pace of baseball as opposed to basketball, but I can't imagine stopping a game long enough to either open up a rules book or consult with someone off the field (even if I know he's a respected official).

Well, I've never stopped to look up a rule, nor do I advocate carrying the rules on the field. The point I was making is that if you don't know the rule, don't make up a rule. He should have ignored the foot out of the box instead of making up a rule. It wouldn't have taken long to ask anyone who knows anything about baseball if he was right or not.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Once the game starts, you go with what you got on the field as far as rules knowledge. I can't imagine it's just basketball, but I know a lot of officials who kick rules early in their careers. He11, I ,know a lot of officials who kick the occasional rule late in their careers.

I've worked basketball in my past too. I knew the rules pretty darn well before starting out. I knew, to make a comparable example, that if you step on the out of bounds line with the ball, that you are out of bounds and the other team gets the ball. That's about how basic the batters box rule is in baseball. Not a really tough call, and pretty much common knowledge.

Sure, officials kick rule calls at all levels of experience on occassion. Judgment calls too. But they normally don't kick such basic rules like this one. It's usually a knotty problem like the kind we argue about here, a different interpretation of a rule, for example.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Isn't what youth ball is for (from an officiating perspective)?

No. Before I was allowed on the baseball field in my association, I had to attend classes and clinics and learn the damn rules. It sounds like this guy just bought some gear and a uniform (or it was given to him) and called himself an umpire.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'd agree he obviously needs to brush up on the rules, but does he need to be perfect before ever stepping behind the plate?

I never said anything about anybody being perfect, either before or after stepping behind the plate. Last perfect person I ever heard of ended up getting hung by the Romans. No, perfection is not a requirement, and you know it's not. But a basic working knowledge of the rules is a requirement to officiate any sport.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I've worked basketball in my past too. I knew the rules pretty darn well before starting out. I knew, to make a comparable example, that if you step on the out of bounds line with the ball, that you are out of bounds and the other team gets the ball. That's about how basic the batters box rule is in baseball. Not a really tough call, and pretty much common knowledge.

I guess from my perspective, the specifics of the rule he got wrong seems a bit more complex than the OOB line in basketball. More like whether the substitute has to shoot the free throws for an injured player (as opposed to anyone on the court). It's a relatively basic rule that everyone should know, but newer officials kick it occasionally.

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Sure, officials kick rule calls at all levels of experience on occassion. Judgment calls too. But they normally don't kick such basic rules like this one. It's usually a knotty problem like the kind we argue about here, a different interpretation of a rule, for example.

Maybe, but I've seen officials kick basic rules, learn from it, and move on to become pretty damned good officials.

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

No. Before I was allowed on the baseball field in my association, I had to attend classes and clinics and learn the damn rules. It sounds like this guy just bought some gear and a uniform (or it was given to him) and called himself an umpire.

I'm lumping LL ball into, essentially, YMCA basketball; so the idea of an ill-prepared official doesn't seem all that unlikely.

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I never said anything about anybody being perfect, either before or after stepping behind the plate. Last perfect person I ever heard of ended up getting hung by the Romans. No, perfection is not a requirement, and you know it's not. But a basic working knowledge of the rules is a requirement to officiate any sport.

Fair enough. This particular rule seems, from your perspective, to be a basic; I can accept that.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

He should have ignored the foot out of the box instead of making up a rule.

That too would constitute making up a rule, namely that a foot out of the box is insignificant.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by mbyron

That too would constitute making up a rule, namely that a foot out of the box is insignificant.

Not at all. A foot out of the box is insignificant...if the batter does not contact the ball with the bat! He would be making the proper "no call."

Unless you were just being funny,

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Not at all. A foot out of the box is insignificant...if the batter does not contact the ball with the bat! He would be making the proper "no call."

Unless you were just being funny,

You and I know it's insignificant, since we know the rule. If you don't know the rule, then anything you do amounts to making up a rule. You're just lucky if you happen to guess right.

My point was the advice you gave is not much help. When something happens on the field, you have to make some kind of ruling. If you don't know the rule, then telling you not to make up rules provides no direction.

Of course, if your real advice is to learn the rules so as not to end up in this position, that's hard to argue with.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Of course, if your real advice is to learn the rules so as not to end up in this position, that's hard to argue with.

Yes. This was the point of the whole thing. The guy should not be umpiring if he doesn't know at least a basic rule like that one, and he should learn the playiing rules before getting out there.

[umpduck11]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

The point I was making is that if you don't know the rule, don't make up a rule. He should have ignored the foot out of the box instead of making up a rule.

Steve, perhaps, rather than him having made up the rule , he was going by something he had heard for years there locally. A neighborhood rule myth,one might call it. Not excusing the dumb ruling, just offering an alternative explaination for the ignorance.