Foot Outside The Box

[Adam]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I've worked basketball in my past too. I knew the rules pretty darn well before starting out. I knew, to make a comparable example, that if you step on the out of bounds line with the ball, that you are out of bounds and the other team gets the ball. That's about how basic the batters box rule is in baseball. Not a really tough call, and pretty much common knowledge.

I guess from my perspective, the specifics of the rule he got wrong seems a bit more complex than the OOB line in basketball. More like whether the substitute has to shoot the free throws for an injured player (as opposed to anyone on the court). It's a relatively basic rule that everyone should know, but newer officials kick it occasionally.

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Sure, officials kick rule calls at all levels of experience on occassion. Judgment calls too. But they normally don't kick such basic rules like this one. It's usually a knotty problem like the kind we argue about here, a different interpretation of a rule, for example.

Maybe, but I've seen officials kick basic rules, learn from it, and move on to become pretty damned good officials.

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

No. Before I was allowed on the baseball field in my association, I had to attend classes and clinics and learn the damn rules. It sounds like this guy just bought some gear and a uniform (or it was given to him) and called himself an umpire.

I'm lumping LL ball into, essentially, YMCA basketball; so the idea of an ill-prepared official doesn't seem all that unlikely.

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I never said anything about anybody being perfect, either before or after stepping behind the plate. Last perfect person I ever heard of ended up getting hung by the Romans. No, perfection is not a requirement, and you know it's not. But a basic working knowledge of the rules is a requirement to officiate any sport.

Fair enough. This particular rule seems, from your perspective, to be a basic; I can accept that.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

He should have ignored the foot out of the box instead of making up a rule.

That too would constitute making up a rule, namely that a foot out of the box is insignificant.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by mbyron

That too would constitute making up a rule, namely that a foot out of the box is insignificant.

Not at all. A foot out of the box is insignificant...if the batter does not contact the ball with the bat! He would be making the proper "no call."

Unless you were just being funny,

[umpduck11]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

The point I was making is that if you don't know the rule, don't make up a rule. He should have ignored the foot out of the box instead of making up a rule.

Steve, perhaps, rather than him having made up the rule , he was going by something he had heard for years there locally. A neighborhood rule myth,one might call it. Not excusing the dumb ruling, just offering an alternative explaination for the ignorance.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Not at all. A foot out of the box is insignificant...if the batter does not contact the ball with the bat! He would be making the proper "no call."

Unless you were just being funny,

You and I know it's insignificant, since we know the rule. If you don't know the rule, then anything you do amounts to making up a rule. You're just lucky if you happen to guess right.

My point was the advice you gave is not much help. When something happens on the field, you have to make some kind of ruling. If you don't know the rule, then telling you not to make up rules provides no direction.

Of course, if your real advice is to learn the rules so as not to end up in this position, that's hard to argue with.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Of course, if your real advice is to learn the rules so as not to end up in this position, that's hard to argue with.

Yes. This was the point of the whole thing. The guy should not be umpiring if he doesn't know at least a basic rule like that one, and he should learn the playiing rules before getting out there.

[SAump]

Following Snaqwells initial premise about no one being perfect when they officiate their first game and speaking of the basic rules and the decision-making between a baseball umpire or a basketball referee; which is harder to learn to officiate?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Yes. This was the point of the whole thing. The guy should not be umpiring if he doesn't know at least a basic rule like that one, and he should learn the playiing rules before getting out there.

I guess this is my problem here, trying to figure out which rules are basic and which are justifiably more complicated.
I played a lot of baseball as a kid, but never once saw an umpire ding a batter for having the foot out of the box. Didn't see it until I was in my late 20's playing slow pitch. It's just hard for me to consider a rule basic when I've only seen it broken and enforced once in my lifetime.
Let me ask this, how often do y'all see this happen in actual games at the various levels?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I guess this is my problem here, trying to figure out which rules are basic and which are justifiably more complicated.

Basic: Rules that I know.

Advanced: Rules that I don't know.

[Rcichon]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I guess this is my problem here, trying to figure out which rules are basic and which are justifiably more complicated.
I played a lot of baseball as a kid, but never once saw an umpire ding a batter for having the foot out of the box. Didn't see it until I was in my late 20's playing slow pitch. It's just hard for me to consider a rule basic when I've only seen it broken and enforced once in my lifetime.
Let me ask this, how often do y'all see this happen in actual games at the various levels?

exactly once in twelve years.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Let me ask this, how often do y'all see this happen in actual games at the various levels?

It depends: as PU I've never seen it (and expect never to do so). As BU I've seen it once in a HS game: LH batter was halfway to pitcher when he bunted a slow curve.

[Adam]

I guess this speaks to my point, thanks.
I was called for it in a slow pitch game once; standard swing but my lead foot went a little too close to third base (my plant foot stayed in the box). One of my first slow pitch games ever, and I was still in effect learning to hit.