Asking partner for help...

[Klokard]

Had an interesting one tonight but not at all uncommon. R1... B2 squares to bunt... pitch comes high and tight to a left hand batter. I am PU... all I see is pitch come in...I see the batter make a defensive manuver to get out of way. I hear a distinct "click" but also see the batter shake hand as he bails out. Catcher stood up to catch high and tight pitch which completely blocks my view. I shout "balls dead"... and leave everyone where they are. I bring in my partner who is in B for a quick conference to see if he saw anything definitive. He says "no". I come back, foul ball, strike 2. 3rd base coach chews a little stating there is no excuse to ask for help on that and that I booted the call. He obviously wanted the award of first base. Batter went on to single so it didn't matter in the end. Question,,,was I wrong for asking or should I have made a decision and stuck with it?

[bobbybanaduck]

first off, call TIME. i don't know where this ball's dead thing started or how it perpetuates, but it's obnoxious. now, on to your situation. seeing as you did all you could do in listening and then reading the batter's reaction (which appear to me to point in opposite directions) i don't have any issue with you going to see if your partner has anything to add to what went on. what i would suggest, is that after speaking with your partner, you go directly to the coach/manager that is not going to benefit from your decision. upon reaching him, inform him,

"skip, here's the deal. the catcher stood up in front of me and completely blocked my view of the batter. i heard the distinctive sound of the ball hitting the bat, but, since i was blocked out, i talked with my partner to see if he saw anything that would result in sending your guy to first. he didn't, so we're going with a foul ball because the clink of that bat is all the info i've got to go on cuz i was blocked out."

my reasoning for this is that one of the skippers is going to be pissed no matter what you do. by going over to him and explaining what just happened you are eliminating the scenario of informing him long distance; which in turn is going to result in him arguing long distance. that will be followed by either you approaching him or, more likely, him approaching you to discuss it further. if you do it in the fashion that i suggested above, you have eliminated the intermediate long distance argument that will inevitably take place before the face to face argument.

now, no doubt he is still going to be pissed, but, you have already informed him of what happened, what you heard, what your partner saw, and that you did everything you could to get his guy to first base if he did indeed get hit by the pitch. furthermore, you've already begun the conversation at close range and in a civil tone without the raising of voices simply to be heard from 100 feet away. if he wants to talk/argue a little at close range, he can probably have a bit of slack on his leash. however, if he tries to go ballistic on you, you've got the, "we've done everything we could do to get the call right" bullet in your gun. obviously you'll let him have his say, but, if he begins to overstep use that bullet and get the game moving again.

for a demonstration point of view, have a role playing conversation with yourself in both styles. first try doing it where you meet with your partner then just call a foul ball. now you've gotta talk loud or yell down at him to tell him what you have, or to tell him to stop yelling and just talk to you, followed by getting together with him to discuss after both of your guards are up cuz you've already gotten a little heated.

now try it the way i suggest and see how the conversations differ. role playing is fun.

[bobbybanaduck]

i had a similar situation to this last week in an indy game in nashua, nh. slidercurvething in the dirt to a LH batter. the catcher went down, forward, an in (toward the batter) to block it, and blocked my view of the ball in the process. i knew it hit something, but i didn't know what cuz i couldn't see. i called it a ball. the batter turned around and said it hit him in the foot. i immediately told him, "i was blocked out, but i'll go ask those guys." without anyone asking me to go get help, i called the other 2 guys in, told them what happened, and asked them if they had anything to add. neither of them did. i went back to the plate and told the batter what we had, and the game went on. the skipper didn't even come down to ask what was going on cuz it must have been blatently obvious by our actions. he did ask me the next inning on his way back out to coach third, and i told him exactly what had happened and what was said. his response? "that play sucks. you did what you could." maybe he was just in a good mood. who knows?

[RPatrino]

I had almost the identical situation a couple of weekends ago. Batter squares to bunt, ball is burrowing inside. I lose sight of the ball as it looks to be heading straight for the batters midsection. I hear a sound, and BR crumples to the ground holding his face. I immediately call "TIME" and head out to my partner. I ask him what did he see, and he told me, "Batter squared to bunt, the ball hit the bat and then into the batters face". I go to 3rd base coach/manager and inform him. "I have a foul ball, we have strike one". Not one peep from either team, batter is replaced and we play on.

Good advice from Bobby.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

Good advice from Bobby.

Agreed.

[Fritz]

Different scenario but curious as to how you would handle this -

2 man crew, I'm PU, partner in B with R1. Pitch comes in high and outside, batter starts a swing and checks. I have a clear view and call "no he did not, Ball!"

DC tells catch to have me appeal to my partner. Catch asks for an appeal and I respond to him and the coach "coach, my partner is in the middle of the field and doesn't have a better angle than I do."

As we settle in for the next pitch, Coach demands I ask for an appeal, says it is his right. I respond "Coach, I already explained why there is no point in doing so, let's play ball."

Coach continues to mutter under his breath, nothing loud enough for me to understand, and we go on without incident.

Would you have gone ahead and asked for the appeal? This wasn't a case of me getting blocked, blinking or in some other way missing the attempt and needing help. Should I have just quickly asked my partner to get his safe call so we can keep the game moving?

[bobbybanaduck]

since you failed to mention a rule code i will answer for OBR. you HAVE to. it's not an option. for any other rule code, whether it is required or not, yes, you should have gone. it makes you look like a stubborn SOB if you don't. what's the harm in going?

[mbyron]

Exactly right. Why wouldn't you take an extra strike if offered one?

[RPatrino]

NCAA and OBR, you MUST ask for help if you are requested to do so. FED is not required. However, my experience has been that going for help is about the easiest thing you can do in this situation. Why would you not want to do things the 'easy way'?

[Tom H.]

Originally Posted by Fritz

Different scenario but curious as to how you would handle this -

2 man crew, I'm PU, partner in B with R1. Pitch comes in high and outside, batter starts a swing and checks. I have a clear view and call "no he did not, Ball!"

DC tells catch to have me appeal to my partner. Catch asks for an appeal and I respond to him and the coach "coach, my partner is in the middle of the field and doesn't have a better angle than I do."

As we settle in for the next pitch, Coach demands I ask for an appeal, says it is his right. I respond "Coach, I already explained why there is no point in doing so, let's play ball."

Coach continues to mutter under his breath, nothing loud enough for me to understand, and we go on without incident.

Would you have gone ahead and asked for the appeal? This wasn't a case of me getting blocked, blinking or in some other way missing the attempt and needing help. Should I have just quickly asked my partner to get his safe call so we can keep the game moving?

As others have stated, in OBR you have to go to your partner. I really hate it when it is very obvious to grand ma out behind the right field fence that he did not go and I get asked to go to my partner. Hopefully your partner hasn't gone to sleep (and doesn't want to walk home ). In those kind of cases the RAT is most likely using one of the myths about a check swing strike. But I digress.
I learned from a minor league umpire at a camp to handle a check swing-ball like this. In a forcefull tone I say "BALL,...NO!" so as to remove all doubt as to my ruling. Once I had a fairly smart catcher who replied to his head RAT (when the rat wanted an appeal) "He asid 'NO!'" . That kid got my best 'zone' that day. Seriously...It works pretty well for me.

[NYBLUE]

Originally Posted by Fritz

Different scenario but curious as to how you would handle this -

2 man crew, I'm PU, partner in B with R1. Pitch comes in high and outside, batter starts a swing and checks. I have a clear view and call "no he did not, Ball!"

DC tells catch to have me appeal to my partner. Catch asks for an appeal and I respond to him and the coach "coach, my partner is in the middle of the field and doesn't have a better angle than I do."

As we settle in for the next pitch, Coach demands I ask for an appeal, says it is his right. I respond "Coach, I already explained why there is no point in doing so, let's play ball."

I would avoid saying that (bolded above) even though it's the truth.

It's simple....
If asked to appeal the check swing, do it.
Your partner should know well enough to go with your call if you sold your call well when you made your call. In addition, your partner knows he's not in the ideal position to see the check swing so unless he's absolutely certain you got it wrong, he should make the same call you made.

[jicecone]

Bobby good advice on the original situation. Sometimes crap happens out there and you just gotta go with the best info you got.

Don't make it up and use your help when you have to. Then before the coach can say squat, you have already addressed the situation the best way possible. If at that point he wants to still stay and watch the game so be it. If he is going to get ugly after handling it that way, just calmly send him to his room.

Good Night Coach!!!

As for disputing whether or not to go for help. Follow the rules and always get a strike or out anyway you can.

[PeteBooth]

[

QUOTE=Fritz]Different scenario but curious as to how you would handle this -

2 man crew, I'm PU, partner in B with R1. Pitch comes in high and outside, batter starts a swing and checks. I have a clear view and call "no he did not, Ball!"

Simply call the pitch a ball no need to add "No he didn't go". When you call the pitch a ball it is now OBVIOUS that he didn't go otherwise you would have called the pitch a strike.

On the flip side the PRO mechanic if you call the pitch a strike on a check swing is to point at the batter and indicate it is a strike. You can also add "he offered"

As others mentioned simply go to your partner. What's the BIG deal. It takes all of 10 seconds.

Personally I do not care what my partner calls. I trust his judgement and when I point to him I simply want him to give me what he's got plain and simple.

Also, with the exception of FED and some youth leagues, OBR / NCAA you MUST go. FWIW I do the same in a FED game.

Pete Booth

[jkumpire]

When I went to pro school in the Dark Ages, we were taught to say: "No he didn't" if you were the PU.

Is this a change in MLB or MiLB mechanics, or is that just your practice?

I personally like to say "No he didn't" since I am selling my check swing call, and maybe dropping by partner a hint on an appeal. A good partner will overrule me if I am wrong, so why worry? Selling my call with voice will save me and my partner trouble on occasion.

[bobbybanaduck]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

On the flip side the PRO mechanic if you call the pitch a strike on a check swing is to point at the batter and indicate it is a strike. You can also add "he offered"

the flip side of what? as is mentioned in the post above mine, the mechanic taught at the umpire schools (was and still) is, "ball, no he didn't go."