Asking partner for help...

[Fritz]

Originally Posted by bobbybanaduck

your responsibility to be a 3B ends when the throw goes to 1B. if R2 advances now it is no longer on the fly ball, it is on the throw. when the throw from F9 was released, you should have read immediately that there was going to be no play at 3B and retreated to the plate. granted, you probably still wouldn't have been able to see it cuz you'd still be tracking back to the plate area, but, by the time they realized that they wanted an appeal, you'd be back at home and would not have to deal with the, "well, forget that," comment from the coach who sees you standing up the 3B line waiting for a play that was never going to happen.

I respectfully beg to differ. Seeing my partner move closer to 1B for the play, and me already being down the line and watching R2 tag up, I think the better positioning would be to stay where I was in case R2 takes off on the dropped throw or chaos at 1B. If I leave at that point, I move back home for a play that is a long way from happening (R2 going to 3B and then home), or a view of the play at 1B while on the run - and leave my partner to suddenly swivel for a play all the way across the diamond.

IMHO, staying put is the smarter move until you see what happens next.

[Klokard]

Lot's of good insight on this one. I am glad I posted it originally. I know we got the call right but as shown here with some of the posts, there is always an opinion. During the season I was BU in a D3 game and unbeknown to me I had 2 evaluators in the stands since I have been nominated for move up next season. I had a situation with R1 and R2 so I was in shallow "C". Hard ground ball to F6 so runners are going hard. F6 charges hard and I see R2 hold up on his advance to 3rd just a bit to avoid the INT. F6 takes the ground ball off his glove into his chest and it bounces forward into the path of R2. R2 then jumps over ball in very close proximity to F6. I signal safe so both teams know I saw it. F6 picks it up and retires BR at 1st. After game during dress out, 1 evaluator asked why I didn't call INT on R2. I explained what I saw and stated that he did what he was supposed to have and the possible INT came on a misplayed GB by F6. He told me that was correct and the fact that I gave safe signal was right on. The other evaluator disagreed and wanted the INT called. Those 2 were still arguing when I left 20 minutes later. Just goes to show you that it's not as black and white as some people think.

[BigTex]

Originally Posted by gordon30307

2. To appease the OHC get together (be sure noone can hear) and stick with the original call.

Why do this? Have some stones and tell the coach that it was MY call, I saw it, I do not need to check with anybody. If you are not looking for your partner's input, then don't get together. All you are doing there is giving the coach someone else to b!tch at. It is not your job to appease anyone.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

I just hope that BU doesn't "get a strike back" that PU KNEW wasn't there to begin with...

Why does this seem so personal with you? I'd bet there's not one of us who hasn't had the BU answer in the affirmative when asked if the batter swing at the pitch. Adjust the count and move on. Jeez-o-pete! It's not like your manhood is being questioned.

[TussAgee11]

Walt - I don't know why I've struck a chord.

I've said if PU was unsure if the batter swung, then he should always get help.

I do not agree that it is a good idea to ask for an appeal to another umpire when the original, calling umpire knew he was right. We wouldn't do it in any other sitch, but the rules say we do it in this one. Why? I'm still not sure.

It has nothing to do with my ego or manhood being challenged as PU. If I think my partner may have information I didn't have, I'm always glad to get it. I don't see how all check swings fit this bill though.

I'll fade into the sunset, we're just talking in circles.

[RPatrino]

Fritz, how far up the 3b line where you? You should be no more than 3/4 up the line, as the ball and runner never arrived at 3b. If you were in the cut-out you were wrong. You should be drifting back toward the plate. Your responsibility was R2's advance on the tag, not a second throw in the infield. The BU needs to get both sides of that play.

[bobbybanaduck]

Originally Posted by Fritz

I respectfully beg to differ. Seeing my partner move closer to 1B for the play, and me already being down the line and watching R2 tag up, I think the better positioning would be to stay where I was in case R2 takes off on the dropped throw or chaos at 1B. If I leave at that point, I move back home for a play that is a long way from happening (R2 going to 3B and then home), or a view of the play at 1B while on the run - and leave my partner to suddenly swivel for a play all the way across the diamond.

IMHO, staying put is the smarter move until you see what happens next.

long from happening or not, it is your next responsibility. your partner having to swivel is his JOB. he should be in the working area for that play at first, so it's not difficult to read the play going to third if it develops. he lets the ball turn him, gets a step or two, and has an angle on the play. if you stay there cuz it's "easier" and somehow a play develops at the plate, are you next going to tell me that he is to rotate down and cover it? and who's now got the runner from first going to second if he had called him safe on the pulled foot instead of out? you gonna bust in there and take it since he's going to cover your play at he plate? patchwork umpiring at it's finest.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

I do not agree that it is a good idea to ask for an appeal to another umpire when the original, calling umpire knew he was right. We wouldn't do it in any other sitch, but the rules say we do it in this one. Why? I'm still not sure.

1) The plate umpire has multiple things to watch -- and they might be happening at different locations.

2) Sometimes what a plate umpire "knows for certain" isn't what happened.

3) I've "never" had a coach ask to check if there wasn't some movement of the bat. If coaches are being a PITA about asking, then deal with that.

4) The time spent denying the request and then explaining it is longer thatn the time to check.

5) By tradition, if you don't check, you get the chit. If you ask, BU gets the chit (no matter the call).

[DG]

Originally Posted by Fritz

And if the OHC had gone ahead and asked for the appeal, my partner and I should have done what?

Your partner should say to OHC "not needed coach, I have this call and I have it correct". No need for you to be involved in the discussion.

[DG]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

If I'm PU, and I am 100% sure that the batter didn't swing, and now coach wants to appeal, how is granting the appeal ensuring that we are getting the call right? I know I had it right, and maybe my partner is 50/50 the other way on it. So now we're taking the call from somebody who is 100% sure and giving it to somebody who is 50/50 on it.

If you are 100% sure you are correct you should be 100% sure that BU will echo. So what's to lose, 5 seconds and the coach sits down. If I am BU I give you my honest opinion and if my honest opinion is "I don't know" (ie 50/50) I am going to echo your call.

[TussAgee11]

Thanks Bob and DG - I see the light now better than before.

I'm sure by the end of the weekend this will sink in and I'll look back on my posts saying "what was I thinking!?"

So thanks for being patient and guiding me through the maze I had created in my own mind

[canadaump6]

Originally Posted by DG

If you are 100% sure you are correct you should be 100% sure that BU will echo. So what's to lose, 5 seconds and the coach sits down. If I am BU I give you my honest opinion and if my honest opinion is "I don't know" (ie 50/50) I am going to echo your call.

I had this situation take place...

3-2 count on the batter, pitch misses low, batter brings his wrists down towards the plate but his bat was at about a 45 degree angle to the batter and not close to crossing the plate, so I balled the pitch. Catcher asks for an appeal so I yell "did he go?" to my partner who has his mind on where he is supposed to go (we were using 3 man system), and doesn't notice me appealing. I yell "(partner's name) did he go"? This time he hears me and calls it a swing.

[canadaump6]

I know an umpire who will never ask for help on a pulled foot. He believes the base umpire should be able to make that call. My question is how is an umpire going to be able to see a pulled foot from inside the infield? He could take a couple steps to get a better angle, but by the time he does this it is too late.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by canadaump6

I had this situation take place...

3-2 count on the batter, pitch misses low, batter brings his wrists down towards the plate but his bat was at about a 45 degree angle to the batter and not close to crossing the plate, so I balled the pitch. Catcher asks for an appeal so I yell "did he go?" to my partner who has his mind on where he is supposed to go (we were using 3 man system), and doesn't notice me appealing. I yell "(partner's name) did he go"? This time he hears me and calls it a swing.

So the partner was moving to his new position because of ball four, but he saw that it was a swing, even though he wasn't paying attention? Then, he doesn't anticipate that the defense would appeal, even though he thought the batter swung? Sounds kind of fishy to me.

If there is even the most remote chance that the batter may have offered, a good base umpire will begin to head to his position so as not to draw attention to an appeal, but he should be ready to quickly make his judgment immediately if asked for his opinion. The fact that you had to get his attention tells me he really didn't know either way, and shouldn't have rung the batter up if he didn't see it.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by canadaump6

I know an umpire who will never ask for help on a pulled foot. He believes the base umpire should be able to make that call. My question is how is an umpire going to be able to see a pulled foot from inside the infield? He could take a couple steps to get a better angle, but by the time he does this it is too late.

Before anyone else rips into you for this one, I get my turn first.

I know an umpire who worked well over 3,000 games in his 21 years as an umpire, who asked for help on a pulled foot exactly twice.

That umpire is me.

The umpire that you know is correct. The base umpire absolutely should get his own calls, even when he is in the infield. If you can't see the pulled foot from the working area, then you are out of position. You need to be on an angle a bit closer to home plate from B so you don't get straight-lined. With the proper angle, which you should set up well in advance of the play at first, you can see everything, and should not need to ask for help.

For instance, when the ball is hit to F4, and you are in B with R1, you don't run toward 2nd base to call the first part of the DP. Your first move should be to step forward, turn with the ball as it passes you, and see the force at 2nd from there, not up close where you have no angle for the relay to 1st. You should see the play at 2nd while set, then move at an angle toward the 45 ft. line to get a few steps toward the angle you need to see F3's foot, which is what you focus on while listening for the ball. You can see all the pulled feet in the world from there. Same thing starting in C. Don't get too close to a force at 2nd, keeping a good sight angle for the nut-cutter you are more likely to have at 1st base.

Oh, the same goes for swipe tags at 1st. The BU should be able to get those himself too. It just looks a lot better.