Asking partner for help...

[TussAgee11]

Let me clarify what I'm asking.

If I'm PU, and I am 100% sure that the batter didn't swing, and now coach wants to appeal, how is granting the appeal ensuring that we are getting the call right? I know I had it right, and maybe my partner is 50/50 the other way on it. So now we're taking the call from somebody who is 100% sure and giving it to somebody who is 50/50 on it.

The numbers may be exaggerated, and perhaps this doesn't happen when working at a very high level as a professional umpire. But with some of the clowns in our association, I get very nervous on a check swing appeal when I know the batter didn't go. Perhaps if I'm working with a veteran I'm not as nervous.

I know I'm not reinventing the wheel here or anything, I guess I'll just never understand why the rule is that you MUST go to your partner.

And, for the record, didn't have a check swing appeal tonight Game 1 of post secret signals went just fine.

[TussAgee11]

Was just thinking about this more.

I guess it really doesn't matter if I understand it or not. The only way it would matter is so I could explain it to other people, but with the way I'm thinking about it now, no explanation would really work. There must be something at the core of my umpiring soul that is making me think about this issue in this manner... if anybody wants to address that be my guest; I'll be getting a Tarot reading tomorrow and will inform you all of how it goes.

Good night.

-Tuss

[ozzy6900]

Tuss, I don't know what is so hard about this whole thing! You call what you see and the defense asks for an appeal. If you are working OBR or NCAA you have to by rule and for FED, you should. It the rule - we don't make the rules, we enforce them! The coaches know this and in a way, they have a right to ask. When they do, we have a duty to go to our partner.

Which brings me to the "double secret, probation Santa Clause" signals. Listen, when I am on the bases, I have more than enough $hit to deal with out there! I get enough BS from players and coaches who don't agree with the interference or out call. I have to listen to coaches pi$$ and moan constantly about F3 pulling his foot and I have to deal with acrobatic outfielders that feel they have to drop and roll with every catch attempt while I am tied to the infield grass with an invisible leash! Then I have to deal with the "Pedro want-to-be" on the mound sticking his fingers in his mouth searching for that elusive lunger to place on the ball so he can be just like his idol. Along with this, I have to pay attention to your signals telling me if you are staying home or taking third base, we have an IF situation or a time play. And on top of all this, you want me to watch for a "soft or hard rise" from you? I'll tell you what, keep your soft & hard rise for your "intamate other", I'll just give you what I have on the checked swing while I deal with my indicator - yeah my indicator - because I'm old, have CRS and I am having trouble staying awake because F1 can't hit the zone to save his life and if the 3rd base coach gives me any more $hit I'm going to dump his a$$!!!!!!!

It may just be that I only have so many brain cells remaining, but an old and wise umpire gave me the best advice I ever received..........Keeping it simple, always benefits the CREW.

For me this makes both circumstances easier. If it's an older established partner I'm used to, I have a pretty solid idea of what he's looking to me for (and even 99% of the old timers just want what I have) if it's a newbie, or its HS season and I'm working with some less experienced guys I'm keeping it easy for me, and for him. Most coaches won't get to worked up over this call being switched if that's the case, you will usually hear more whining from the stands if from anywhere.

The Less I have to worry about looking for from my partner the more attention I can pay to the detail of the game that can and WILL get me in trouble. It runs paralell to the "expected call" scenario's. If a simple checking with your partner will keep the rats in their cage why not make it easier on both of us? I think in the past there was more of a tenor that allowing a partner to change that call would weaken the Plate Man's influence, I have to say the game has moved forward in peoples attitudes about this particular call and the acceptance of what might have been seen by a different set of eyes. My 2 pennies worth.
Tom

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

I'll tell you what, keep your soft & hard rise for your "intamate other",

Dude, you're lucky I hadn't poured my coffee yet or you would be owing me a new keyboard, as I would have Asnered the coffee all over it.

[Welpe]

With apologies to Tee...Ozzy I think that ties for the best post on the internet.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

Tuss, I don't know what is so hard about this whole thing! You call what you see and the defense asks for an appeal. If you are working OBR or NCAA you have to by rule and for FED, you should. It the rule - we don't make the rules, we enforce them! The coaches know this and in a way, they have a right to ask. When they do, we have a duty to go to our partner.

Which brings me to the "double secret, probation Santa Clause" signals. Listen, when I am on the bases, I have more than enough $hit to deal with out there! I get enough BS from players and coaches who don't agree with the interference or out call. I have to listen to coaches pi$$ and moan constantly about F3 pulling his foot and I have to deal with acrobatic outfielders that feel they have to drop and roll with every catch attempt while I am tied to the infield grass with an invisible leash! Then I have to deal with the "Pedro want-to-be" on the mound sticking his fingers in his mouth searching for that elusive lunger to place on the ball so he can be just like his idol. Along with this, I have to pay attention to your signals telling me if you are staying home or taking third base, we have an IF situation or a time play. And on top of all this, you want me to watch for a "soft or hard rise" from you? I'll tell you what, keep your soft & hard rise for your "intamate other", I'll just give you what I have on the checked swing while I deal with my indicator - yeah my indicator - because I'm old, have CRS and I am having trouble staying awake because F1 can't hit the zone to save his life and if the 3rd base coach gives me any more $hit I'm going to dump his a$$!!!!!!!

Great post, Ozzy!

[gordon30307]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

First off, I don't care if we get an extra strike out of it. I just want to get it right, whether I'm PU or BU.

A technique I tell my partners is if I come up "softly" to you on an appeal, that means there is no way in hell he went. I'll often times delay my own point after the catcher's point, won't make it crisp, and will not include a LOUD, "Did he go?" I might also add a step to the side before I make my point.

If I'm truly in the dark, as soon as catcher points, I'm a beat behind him. My left hand is alot crisper with the mechanic and my "Did he go?" can be heard clearly by everyone. That is when I need help from BU, and he knows the difference.

Works well.

Aside from the usual stuff when working with a partner pregame etc. there are three more important rules: TRUST YOUR PARTNER, TRUST YOUR PARTNER AND TRUST YOUR PARTNER. Secret Signals imply that you don't trust your partner.

I'ver NEVER worked with a partner (I've had many over the years) that had secret signals. If one ever suggests this.............. "he's getting what I got".

[Fritz]

Must be my week to keep steppin' in stuff.........after tracking the posts related to my OP about a check swing appeal and the consensus that if a coach asks, you gotta do it, this is what I get last night:

15U, I'm PU, no outs, R1 and R2. Medium fly hit to right, I tell my partner that I've got R2 to 3rd if he goes. Partner slides from C toward B to watch the catch and R1. Everything is good so far.

F9 makes the catch and throws to 1st to catch R1 who had gone to "halfway" and is now scrambling to get back. Throw is off line (toward 2nd) and bang-bang. My partner calls R1 out and what happens............OC at 1st starts screaming that F3 pulled his foot, and you know what comes next............OHC yells for his team to appeal to "the other blue" (me, standing more than halfway down the 3B line). I turn to look at the OHC (in 3rd base dugout) as my partner calls Time; then the OHC notices where I am at and says "well, forget that". Meanwhile, I'm thinking........"wonder what the boys will say on the board when I post this sitch tomorrow!"

I knew the play at first was happening, but as it was, R2 was tagging for a move to 3rd if the ball got by 1B so I didn't really see the actual call.

And if the OHC had gone ahead and asked for the appeal, my partner and I should have done what?

[canadaump6]

Originally Posted by Fritz

And if the OHC had gone ahead and asked for the appeal, my partner and I should have done what?

Do not appeal, stick with the out call. The should have had an angle to see whether or not he pulled the foot at first.

[gordon30307]

Originally Posted by Fritz

Must be my week to keep steppin' in stuff.........after tracking the posts related to my OP about a check swing appeal and the consensus that if a coach asks, you gotta do it, this is what I get last night:

15U, I'm PU, no outs, R1 and R2. Medium fly hit to right, I tell my partner that I've got R2 to 3rd if he goes. Partner slides from C toward B to watch the catch and R1. Everything is good so far.

F9 makes the catch and throws to 1st to catch R1 who had gone to "halfway" and is now scrambling to get back. Throw is off line (toward 2nd) and bang-bang. My partner calls R1 out and what happens............OC at 1st starts screaming that F3 pulled his foot, and you know what comes next............OHC yells for his team to appeal to "the other blue" (me, standing more than halfway down the 3B line). I turn to look at the OHC (in 3rd base dugout) as my partner calls Time; then the OHC notices where I am at and says "well, forget that". Meanwhile, I'm thinking........"wonder what the boys will say on the board when I post this sitch tomorrow!"

I knew the play at first was happening, but as it was, R2 was tagging for a move to 3rd if the ball got by 1B so I didn't really see the actual call.

And if the OHC had gone ahead and asked for the appeal, my partner and I should have done what?

1. As plate umpire you can't help out on the play. You have the play at third and are way out of position.

2. To appease the OHC get together (be sure noone can hear) and stick with the original call.

OHC thinks you checked. DHC doesn't care because nothing has changed.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Fritz

And if the OHC had gone ahead and asked for the appeal, my partner and I should have done what?

PU to coach: "Not my call."

The End.

[Fritz]

I'm with you guys, I wasn't in position to see the call so couldn't help. But it got me thinking with all the "if they ask, you gotta appeal for help whether you want to or not" posts on the check swing. What is so different here.

On the check swing OP, my partner was in B and not really in position there either to rule on a non-check that I knew I had not missed (it wasn't close to being a swing). That coach was being a rat by trying to force the issue and not accepting my explanation that partner wasn't in position to make a ruling. But doesn't the same philosophy apply here too? If you aren't in position to rule and the coach still asks, do you still have to go to your partner?

Don't want to sound argumentative, just looking for guidance -

[TussAgee11]

Fritz - I believe that the argument may come down to the fact that partner in B has a better look at a check swing then the home plate umpire.

I'm not going to argue that BU in B or even C gets a good enough look on a check swing, even good enough to overrule PU at times. Any umpire that is worth a damn can get a decent to good look at a check swing in B or C.

I just hope that BU doesn't "get a strike back" that PU KNEW wasn't there to begin with...

Those who participate in schools... is the idea of PU taking the strike call right away being emphasized more? Or does it just seem that at the MLB level the plate umpire is getting more strikes on those check swings rather than balling the pitch and then appealing?

[bobbybanaduck]

Originally Posted by Fritz

Must be my week to keep steppin' in stuff.........after tracking the posts related to my OP about a check swing appeal and the consensus that if a coach asks, you gotta do it, this is what I get last night:

15U, I'm PU, no outs, R1 and R2. Medium fly hit to right, I tell my partner that I've got R2 to 3rd if he goes. Partner slides from C toward B to watch the catch and R1. Everything is good so far.

F9 makes the catch and throws to 1st to catch R1 who had gone to "halfway" and is now scrambling to get back. Throw is off line (toward 2nd) and bang-bang. My partner calls R1 out and what happens............OC at 1st starts screaming that F3 pulled his foot, and you know what comes next............OHC yells for his team to appeal to "the other blue" (me, standing more than halfway down the 3B line). I turn to look at the OHC (in 3rd base dugout) as my partner calls Time; then the OHC notices where I am at and says "well, forget that". Meanwhile, I'm thinking........"wonder what the boys will say on the board when I post this sitch tomorrow!"

I knew the play at first was happening, but as it was, R2 was tagging for a move to 3rd if the ball got by 1B so I didn't really see the actual call.

And if the OHC had gone ahead and asked for the appeal, my partner and I should have done what?

your responsibility to be a 3B ends when the throw goes to 1B. if R2 advances now it is no longer on the fly ball, it is on the throw. when the throw from F9 was released, you should have read immediately that there was going to be no play at 3B and retreated to the plate. granted, you probably still wouldn't have been able to see it cuz you'd still be tracking back to the plate area, but, by the time they realized that they wanted an appeal, you'd be back at home and would not have to deal with the, "well, forget that," comment from the coach who sees you standing up the 3B line waiting for a play that was never going to happen.