Bases Awarded??

[slowballbaker]

Need help on this one.

Runner on 1st base and no outs and batter 1 hits a pop fly to 2nd base. The runner at first does not tag and run all the way to 2nd base. The baseman catches the flyball for out number 1. After the catch, the runner at 2nd base takes about 2 to 3 steps and heads back towards 1st base. But the 2nd basemen throws to 1st base for the double play, but throws the ball into the dugout.

The baserunner was only 2 to 3 feet off 2nd baseman and heading to 1st base when the ball went into the dugout...
What is the correct call on where runner 1 should be?

Thanks....

[UmpJM]

slowballbaker,

The R1 is awarded 3B.

JM

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

slowballbaker,

The R1 is awarded 3B.

JM

And subject to being out on appeal if he doesn't go back and touch first base.

[RPatrino]

Slow ball, the reason is: First play by an infielder - 2 bases from time of pitch, (TOP). Second play by an infield or first by an outfielder, 2 bases from Time of Throw, (TOT). Now, the fact that R1 was at 2nd base at the time of the catch is immaterial, because he did not legally obtain that base.

[mbyron]

TOP or TOT is immaterial, since both would be from 1B.

Also, your post doesn't tell the guy which it is in this case (it's TOT, since the first play was catching the pop fly).

Finally, R1 was not at 2B in the OP, he was between 1B and 2B.

Not your best contribution, RP.

[mbyron]

More controversial is the case where R1 is past 2B when the ball goes out of play. The award is 2 bases from TOT, but do you award him home (since he's past 2B) or 3B (2 bases from the last base legally touched)?

No need to answer -- there's whole threads on this one you can search for.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

Now, the fact that R1 was at 2nd base at the time of the catch is immaterial, because he did not legally obtain that base.

If the runner was on or beyond 2B when the ball became dead, he could not legally re-touch 1B and would be out on proper appeal, even if he did go back and re-touch 1st.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

If the runner was on or beyond 2B when the ball became dead, he could not legally re-touch 1B and would be out on proper appeal, even if he did go back and re-touch 1st.

Only in FED rules. In OBR/NCAA, he most certainly can (and must) return, retouching all bases on the way or be subject to appeal.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by mbyron

TOP or TOT is immaterial, since both would be from 1B.

Also, your post doesn't tell the guy which it is in this case (it's TOT, since the first play was catching the pop fly).

"Catching the ball" isn't the "first play." And, PBUC / MLBUM make it clear that the award is from TOP.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Only in FED rules. In OBR/NCAA, he most certainly can (and must) return, retouching all bases on the way or be subject to appeal.

NCAA 8.6. a. A.R. 2
OBR 7.10 AR(2):

"When the ball is dead, no runner may return to touch a missed base or the one just left if the runner has advanced to and touched a base beyond the missed base."

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

NCAA 8.6. a. A.R. 2
OBR 7.10 AR(2):

"When the ball is dead, no runner may return to touch a missed base or the one just left if the runner has advanced to and touched a base beyond the missed base."

What it means is:

If the runner advances AFTER the ball has become dead, he may not return.

The FED rule is:

If the runner is beyond the base WHEN the ball becomes dead, he may not return.

(And, yes, the OBR rule could be better written.)

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

What it means is:

If the runner advances AFTER the ball has become dead, he may not return.

That's not what the rule says. It says the runner cannot re-touch during a dead ball if he HAS ADVANCED to the next base. I don't see how this could be interpreted any other way.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

That's not what the rule says. It says the runner cannot re-touch during a dead ball if he HAS ADVANCED to the next base. I don't see how this could be interpreted any other way.

Well, it is.

Let me put in the words of Jaksa/Roder:

"Once a batted ball is caught, a runner is vulnerable to a retouch appeal if the ball becomes dead and he then proceeds to touch or pass an advance base.

E.G.: R1, one out. R1, thinking there are town outs, continues running past
second base as the batter's fly ball goes toward the right fielder. The
right fielder catches the ball for the second out and throws toward first
for an appeal of R1's failure to retouch. R1 is standing between second
and third when the right fielder's throw goes out of play: if R1 does not
proceed to touch third base after the ball has become dead, he can return
to touch first base, second base and third base in accepting his award. "

As Bob and I have said, in FED, the runner is caught between second and third and unless the throw out of play was intentional (in order to trap the runner), he's subject to appeal no matter what he does at this point.

[LakeErieUmp]

I agree with dash. I also don't believe we need to have the runner go through the exercise of returning to first, touching it, then going to third on the out of play award. Basically, I don't think "touching up" is that big a deal in this situation
Here is my reasoning: many of you are saying R1 is subject to appeal for leaving too soon and, since the ball went out of play before returned he did not arrive at 2B legally. And, since he he can't return to 1B he's going to be out no matter what he does.
But here's the problem - if that were the case, R1, fly ball to RF down the line. R1 takes off thinking it'll drop.F9 makes a flying circus catch, lands, and sees he'll never get a throw off th F3 to double off the runner. So he tosses the ball into the stands. SAME situation. Dead ball. R1 has not returned. Are you going to ring R1 up because F9 threw the ball out of play?
Forget the retouch on a dead ball. Don't waste the time. Award 3B and play ball.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Well, it is.

Let me put in the words of Jaksa/Roder:

"Once a batted ball is caught, a runner is vulnerable to a retouch appeal if the ball becomes dead and he then proceeds to touch or pass an advance base.

E.G.: R1, one out. R1, thinking there are town outs, continues running past
second base as the batter's fly ball goes toward the right fielder. The
right fielder catches the ball for the second out and throws toward first
for an appeal of R1's failure to retouch. R1 is standing between second
and third when the right fielder's throw goes out of play: if R1 does not
proceed to touch third base after the ball has become dead, he can return
to touch first base, second base and third base in accepting his award. "

As Bob and I have said, in FED, the runner is caught between second and third and unless the throw out of play was intentional (in order to trap the runner), he's subject to appeal no matter what he does at this point.

I am aware of the J/R interpretation and don't agree with it. To me, J/R is misreading the rule rather than interpreting it. Is there any other "authoritative opinion" supporting J/R? Is it in the BRD? What does Evans say about it?

Thanks.