Out of play bases awarded?

[jeisch]

A runner is on first base, and a line drive is hit to the shortstop. The shortstop tries to double up the runner on first, who is about 10 feet off the base. The shortstop overthrows first, and he ball goes into the dugout. What base is awarded to the runner on first. The rule says the runner is awarded two bases from his position when the ball is pitched, when such wild throw is the first play by an infielder. Is the overthrow still considered the first play by the infielder, or is that the catch. Does the runner get second or third after going back and tagging up on first?

[TwoBits]

He gets third.

[greymule]

The runner gets 3B. Even if you consider the throw to be the first play by an infielder, the runner was on 1B at the time of the pitch.

Tougher awards are these:

Abel on 1B, 0 out. Baker hits a drive to right center, and Abel takes off. Abel rounds 2B and is on his way to 3B when F8 makes a diving catch. F8 gets up and fires a long throw to 1B to get Abel . . .

(a) after Abel has initiated a return toward 2B in an attempt to return to 1B, and the throw enters DBT

(b) after Abel has retouched 2B on his way back to 1B, and the throw enters DBT

(c) as Abel stands on 3B watching the throw go into DBT, and Abel remains on 3B

(d) as Abel stands on 3B watching the throw go into DBT, and Abel remains on 3B, but, after the award, returns to 1B to tag up

(e) as Abel is returning to 2B to retouch on his way back to 1B, and when Abel sees the ball go into DBT, he reverses direction and runs to 3B and stands there.

There has been much controversy over what to award in at least two of these cases.

[cbfoulds]

Originally posted by jeisch
A runner is on first base, and a line drive is hit to the shortstop. The shortstop tries to double up the runner on first, who is about 10 feet off the base. The shortstop overthrows first, and he ball goes into the dugout. What base is awarded to the runner on first. The rule says the runner is awarded two bases from his position when the ball is pitched, when such wild throw is the first play by an infielder. Is the overthrow still considered the first play by the infielder, or is that the catch. Does the runner get second or third after going back and tagging up on first?

You've got the R's position [1st, never reached 2d];
You've got the rule [2 bases from TOP]:
What I don't get is why you would think it is even remotely possible, given that you understand the two items above, that R1 would go only to 2d on a 2-base award?

[w_sohl]

Interesting greymule, I am intrigued to hear what the answers will be for those situations

[Matthew F]

Originally posted by greymule
The runner gets 3B. Even if you consider the throw to be the first play by an infielder, the runner was on 1B at the time of the pitch.

Tougher awards are these:

Abel on 1B, 0 out. Baker hits a drive to right center, and Abel takes off. Abel rounds 2B and is on his way to 3B when F8 makes a diving catch. F8 gets up and fires a long throw to 1B to get Abel . . .

(a) after Abel has initiated a return toward 2B in an attempt to return to 1B, and the throw enters DBT

(b) after Abel has retouched 2B on his way back to 1B, and the throw enters DBT

(c) as Abel stands on 3B watching the throw go into DBT, and Abel remains on 3B

(d) as Abel stands on 3B watching the throw go into DBT, and Abel remains on 3B, but, after the award, returns to 1B to tag up

(e) as Abel is returning to 2B to retouch on his way back to 1B, and when Abel sees the ball go into DBT, he reverses direction and runs to 3B and stands there.

There has been much controversy over what to award in at least two of these cases.

I'll give it a try.

In a nutshell, a runner cannot legally attempt to return to a base if he is on (or passed) a subsequent base when the ball became dead. So in any of these cases if the runner occupies 2nd or is beyond 2nd when the ball became dead, he cannot legally return; he can be called out on proper appeal. In all cases, I would award the runner 3rd base since that is the base the runner could have legally obtained. In A,C,D & E, I would call Abel out on proper appeal. In B, I would call Abel out if he does not retouch 1B.

What I'm not sure about, is do we, as umpires, permit the runner to retouch the bases back to 1B if they are on (or past) a subsequent base when the ball became dead? Since its not legal, I tend to believe you don't permit it. But if you stop the runner from returning, you clue in the "clueless defense" to the runner's error.

[Jay R]

Here is my understanding of this rule. A runner cannot attempt to return to a base that he has passed subsequent to the ball going out of play.

Example 1. R1 is between 2B and 3B when the ball is thrown out of play. He may return to touch 1B as long as he does not reach 3B.

Example 2. R1 is between 1B and 2B when the ball is thrown out of play. After this, R1 passes 2B and decides to return to tag up at 1B; this is not allowed.

[greymule]

It is true that if a runner, after the ball has gone into DBT, proceeds to touch the next base, he cannot legally return to touch a base missed or left too soon.

Therefore, in (e), Abel cannot legally return. Of course, as umpire we do not announce that fact, but instead honor an appeal on Abel even if he does return.

My understanding of the plays is as follows:

(a) because Abel has initiated a return, we award him 3B, even though he was between 2B and 3B when the throw left the fielder's hand

(b) award 3B

(c) award home (this has been the subject of much debate; the idea is that awarding only 3B announces to the defense that Abel left too soon); of course, Abel would be out on appeal

(d) at first, award home, but after Abel then initiates a return to touch 1B, change the award to 3B (needless to say, this has also generated debate!)

(e) award home, but allow the appeal on Abel even if he subsequently returns to touch 1B. I guess that if Abel tried, even illegally, to return, you would have to change the award to 3B since not changing the award would be tantamount to announcing to the defense that Abel was not permitted to return

This is speaking OBR. I have no idea how Fed would call these plays. It is interesting, for example, that ASA softball would award bases entirely differently in most of these cases.

[mcrowder]

Originally posted by greymule
The runner gets 3B. Even if you consider the throw to be the first play by an infielder, the runner was on 1B at the time of the pitch.

Tougher awards are these:

Abel on 1B, 0 out. Baker hits a drive to right center, and Abel takes off. Abel rounds 2B and is on his way to 3B when F8 makes a diving catch. F8 gets up and fires a long throw to 1B to get Abel . . .

(a) after Abel has initiated a return toward 2B in an attempt to return to 1B, and the throw enters DBT

Abel scores

(b) after Abel has retouched 2B on his way back to 1B, and the throw enters DBT

Abel to third base.

(c) as Abel stands on 3B watching the throw go into DBT, and Abel remains on 3B

Abel scores (if he retags or is not appealed at 1st)

((d) as Abel stands on 3B watching the throw go into DBT, and Abel remains on 3B, but, after the award, returns to 1B to tag up

Abel scores

((e) as Abel is returning to 2B to retouch on his way back to 1B, and when Abel sees the ball go into DBT, he reverses direction and runs to 3B and stands there.

Abel awarded home (but cannot return to touch 1st, and can still be appealed for leaving early)

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by greymule
This is speaking OBR. I have no idea how Fed would call these plays. It is interesting, for example, that ASA softball would award bases entirely differently in most of these cases.

In FED, the runner can't (legally) return if he's beyond the next base at the time the ball goes out of play. So, award two bases from the current spot, honor any appeals that apply.

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by Matthew F

What I'm not sure about, is do we, as umpires, permit the runner to retouch the bases back to 1B if they are on (or past) a subsequent base when the ball became dead? Since its not legal, I tend to believe you don't permit it. But if you stop the runner from returning, you clue in the "clueless defense" to the runner's error.

As umpires we are not PERMITTING anything. We are simply making base awards. It's then up to the DEFENSE to KNOW the rule and make a valid appeal.

It goes something like this assume FED rules.

B1 hits a gapper, misses first, rounds second base when he/she realizes it. While B1 is either on second base or between second and third the ball goes into DBT.

The call

1. TIME
2. You Home

Now the runner upon receiving the base awards from the umpire touches and re-touches the bases properly HOWEVER,

At the time the ball went into DBT he was on or beyond a succeeding base.

Now at this point it's up to the Defense to appeal. In FED even though the ball is dead, the coach or defensive team can appeal. However, if no appeal is made score the run.

In Summary: Even though the runner illegally corrected his/her mistake we as umpires say nothing. Simply award the proper bases. It's now up to the defense to initiate a proper appeal.

Pete Booth

[DG]

Originally posted by PeteBooth
Originally posted by Matthew F

What I'm not sure about, is do we, as umpires, permit the runner to retouch the bases back to 1B if they are on (or past) a subsequent base when the ball became dead? Since its not legal, I tend to believe you don't permit it. But if you stop the runner from returning, you clue in the "clueless defense" to the runner's error.

B1 hits a gapper, misses first, rounds second base when he/she realizes it. While B1 is either on second base or between second and third the ball goes into DBT.
Pete Booth

Double check me on this, the award is from the TOT by the outfielder so runner would have to be on or beyond 2B when outfielder released the ball, not when it went into DBT,which could be several seconds later.

[greymule]

Double check me on this, the award is from the TOT by the outfielder so runner would have to be on or beyond 2B when outfielder released the ball, not when it went into DBT, which could be several seconds later.

That's right. However, what I have gathered about OBR awards is that when a runner initiates a return, the award is then made from the base left too soon, not the actual spot where the runner happened to be at TOT. In this, mcrowder and I appear to disagree. (This would be plays "a" and "d," where Abel is past 2B when the throw is made but initiates a return to touch 1B. In those cases, I say award 3B, while mcrowder says award home.)

The MLB (OBR) rule book cites the base left too soon as the basis for the award (regardless of where the runner is TOT), but I don't have my book with me to cite the number of the rule.