How long to stop?

[TussAgee11]

Originally Posted by justanotherblue

As long as his hands have stopped before his lower body begins, he has stopped for all intense and purpose of the rule.

Explain then how this is fully meeting the rule...

"The pitcher, following his stretch, must (a) hold the ball in both hands in front of his body and (b) come to a complete stop." (8.01b, OBR)

Where in that does it say all that has to stop are his hands? He can stop his hands, then waggle his hips, then stop again, then have his lower body begin?

Perhaps you can clear up what you mean.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Explain then how this is fully meeting the rule...

"The pitcher, following his stretch, must (a) hold the ball in both hands in front of his body and (b) come to a complete stop." (8.01b, OBR)

Where in that does it say all that has to stop are his hands? He can stop his hands, then waggle his hips, then stop again, then have his lower body begin?

Perhaps you can clear up what you mean.

While jab's statement is over-reaching and not literally correct, it is correct in most situations. Most of the time, F1 comes set by lowering his joined hands while the rest of the body is still. He then starts his motion by raising the non-pivot foot. If the raising happens before the hands stop, it's a balk. If the hands stop first, it's legal.

In the .001% of the time whare this isn't F1's move, the comment doesn't apply.

The Evans balk video contains an example of this.

[TussAgee11]

Bob, I agree that this is one way to see if F1 balks or not. Certainly the typical "no stop" balk happens when the lower body goes before the hands are stopped.

My point is to eliminate the confusion on why this is a balk. It is not a balk because the legs went before the hands were stopped (that is not in the rule book). It is a balk because the set position was not obtained by the pitcher because he did not come to a complete stop before pitching.

Saying that if he stops his hands before his legs go he is completely legal no matter what is incorrect and may be misleading to new umpires who read here...

As always, just my 2 cents.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Saying that if he stops his hands before his legs go he is completely legal no matter what is incorrect and may be misleading to new umpires who read here...

That is the point. He did not say "no matter what." He gave one example. That the pitcher must come set before he lifts his non-pivot foot (kick leg). He must. It's part of the requirement to come to a complete stop. If he lifts his leg first, then he hasn't stopped, now has he? It's not the only requirement, but as Bob said, it is generally enough to satisfy the rule. You don't see too many pitchers wiggling around with their bodies as you described. Just doesn't happen.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

That is the point. He did not say "no matter what." He gave one example. That the pitcher must come set before he lifts his non-pivot foot (kick leg). He must. It's part of the requirement to come to a complete stop. If he lifts his leg first, then he hasn't stopped, now has he? It's not the only requirement, but as Bob said, it is generally enough to satisfy the rule. You don't see too many pitchers wiggling around with their bodies as you described. Just doesn't happen.

Yes, it does, especially with submariners.

[TussAgee11]

Steve, we're quibbling about details here, but I'm game for another round...

Saying that stopping the hands before the lower body starts is "satisfying the rule for all intense and purposes" as JAB did (intensive purposes for those who wish to nitpick...but this isn't English class) is not true.

It does not satisfy the must come to a complete stop, it is just one part of a whole body that must stop...

Yes, the hands must stop as well, I'm not disputing that. All I'm saying is that EVERYTHING must stop, so don't look just for the hands to stop... look for EVERYTHING.

[justanotherblue]

Sorry if I confused some of you. Let me try to clear my point. The OP wanted to know how long a pitchers hands have to be stopped, not moving...held still.. to be considered a discernable stop. For that part of the fricken rule, it is taught that as long as his hands have stopped Before his legs start, he has stopped. As for the over 30 different ways a pitcher can balk, depending on rule set, look em up As for the english portion, excuse me all the hell

[Rich]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Steve, we're quibbling about details here, but I'm game for another round...

Saying that stopping the hands before the lower body starts is "satisfying the rule for all intense and purposes" as JAB did (intensive purposes for those who wish to nitpick...but this isn't English class) is not true.

It does not satisfy the must come to a complete stop, it is just one part of a whole body that must stop...

Yes, the hands must stop as well, I'm not disputing that. All I'm saying is that EVERYTHING must stop, so don't look just for the hands to stop... look for EVERYTHING.

It's INTENTS AND PURPOSES! If you're going to nitpick, at least do it correctly.